0
   

Water Softeners What to buy and why

 
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 10:48 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

Really. And have you actually seen a Clack WS-1 circuit board?


Yes, and I was not impressed with how cheap the construction was.
Even the suppliers that you buy from admit that the Clack valve is
a cheap knock-off of the better Fleck valve. I could sell Clack, but
my clients deserve better - that's why I sell Fleck, but you knew that.
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 03:56 pm
@H2O MAN,
We were talking circuit boards but....

You sold and serviced Rainsoft junk for 20 years and told everyone how great it was like you tell people now that the Ecowater is best although it's nothing more than an overpriced version of the Kenmore, Whirlpool, THD's GE and supply house North Star. But you sell Fleck!!! LOL

But I agree, your customers (and the members of the forum) deserve better.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 09:29 pm
@Gary Slusser,


The old obsolete brass valved RainSoft systems I service are still excellent systems.
I have many that have been working longer than Clack valves have been around.

You peddle that Clack Crap because it's cheap. Cheaply made, but not cheap to own.

We all deserve better than the Clack Crap you try to sell here on A2K.

0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 11:31 pm
Clack WS-1 circuit board... unremarkable design, unremarkable components, and unremarkable in it's unpotted assembly.

About what you'll see in a $40 digital TV converter box except that would have more components.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/3a692fb9fc.jpg
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 09:56 am
@justalurker,
Anyone can claim anything. Show us the difference between that board and a remarkable converter box, Fleck, any TV, radio or computer circuit board.
justalurker
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 10:37 am
@Gary Slusser,
No claim... just fact.

With your electronic background dating back to vacuum tubes you should be able to recognize unremarkable technology when you see it.

Since Google is apparently not your friend here you go... inside a $40 (retail price) DTV converter box. More components than the Clack circuit board and some SMD technology the Clack board doesn't have. Note the three push buttons on the lower right of the circuit board which are similar to the ones on the Clack circuit board. Neither board is potted

By February 17, 2009 there will be tens of millions of these $40 DTV converter boxes out there. Unremarkable technology at $40 RETAIL.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e692fe646f.jpg
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 01:00 pm



justalurker, that's great signature line!! Laughing
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 01:53 pm
@H2O MAN,
Just my personal experience... Wink
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2008 12:13 pm
@justalurker,
So what? The Clack board obviously doesn't require different technology blah blah blah to do the job it is intended to but...

Post a picture of the Fleck SE or the new SXT boards and compare them to the Clack board, that was the subject of the comparison.

You've owned one Clack board for about 18-24 months. Has the friend you gave it to had circuit board problems?
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2008 12:51 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

So what? The Clack board obviously doesn't require different technology blah blah blah to do the job it is intended to but...


Once again... the Slusser bob and weave, the rope-a-dope, the shuck and jive, the backstroke.

You portrayed the Clack circuit board as something special.

I said "Clack WS-1 circuit board... unremarkable design, unremarkable components, and unremarkable in it's unpotted assembly. About what you'll see in a $40 digital TV converter box except that would have more components".

You challenged me to "Show us the difference between that board and a remarkable converter box" so I did.

Now you say "So what? The Clack board obviously doesn't require different technology blah blah blah to do the job it is intended... ".

You continue to make statements then challenge me to prove you wrong... so I do.

You argue by backstroking with childish retorts rather than presenting facts to back up your statements. I present the exact facts you challenge me to produce which invalidate your statements and you reply... "blah blah blah".

The facts are that the Clack is in it's infancy compared to the decades of reliable in the field service the Fleck valves have provided. Some day, the Clack may prove as reliable as a Fleck BUT, the Fleck valves will continue to enjoy three or four decades of a head start and field history.

Your hollow boasts that the Clack is what Fleck would have designed next has as much credibility as Gorge Bush's belief that Saddam had WMDs.

You don't support your statements with facts so save this (and other forums) the bandwidth and yourself a lot of typing and just continue to... http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/274ebd9eea.gif if that's what makes you happy.
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 12:48 am
@justalurker,
justalurker wrote:
You portrayed the Clack circuit board as something special.

Rereading what I said, I don't see where I said anything like that but...

I did get a picture of Fleck's new SXT circuit board today.

It's about the same size and shade of green as the Clack board and you'd swear it's its sister! You might say unremarkable, no SMD whatever blah blah blah blah blah.

Maybe you or h20man could find a picture of the Fleck SXT board and post it to prove your claims of the Clack board's inferiority?

BTW, talking of pictures and proving claims, you could post a picture of the inside front wall of your garage where the water heater is (corner to corner) is.
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 01:08 am
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker wrote:
You portrayed the Clack circuit board as something special.

Rereading what I said, I don't see where I said anything like that but...


Everyone reading your statements and my replies can see the blah blah blah blah blah and the facts to decide for themselves.

I'll just correct you with the facts.
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 02:05 pm
@justalurker,
Yeah speaking of facts, the new Fleck SXT circuit board, used for all Fleck residential and small commercial control valves (ProFlo, TwinFlo, 2510, 2750, 2850, 7000, 5600, 9000, 9100 and 9500) looks like a clone of the Clack board! It has some of the features of the Clack boards but not all of the features of any Clack board (there is more than one) and the Clack is only 8 years old... There should be no reason to wonder why Fleck is copying some of the Clack features but knowing you, you might.

Maybe Fleck has a picture of the SXT on their web site, or.. I would trade ya one for a picture of your garage where your softener with the Clack valve used to be.

Now with Fleck copying Clack, it seems Fleck is the new kid on the block as you say!! And this isn't the first time, the 7000 was first in Feb 2005 and to be fair, it was done more to compete with a limited distribution Autotrol Performa valve than Clack valves. Now if I'm right, the SXT has dropped the feature that allowed it to compete with an Autotrol feature; it's not on the 7000/STX spec sheet. That feature and problems with the 7000 is why I stopped selling the 7000 in the spring of 2006.

Control valve circuit boards may look different than a board in a TV converter box, computer etc. etc. because control valve circuit boards are made to be used outdoors, indoors, in high or low humidity with very wide range temperature fluctuations and environmental conditions while TV converter box boards are not.
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 05:44 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

Yeah speaking of facts, the new Fleck SXT circuit board, used for all Fleck residential and small commercial control valves (ProFlo, TwinFlo, 2510, 2750, 2850, 7000, 5600, 9000, 9100 and 9500) looks like a clone of the Clack board!


Wrong again... the Fleck board is a different and more contemporary design than the old tech Clack design. Here's a low res pic of the Fleck SXT board on the Pentair site (in PDF form)... http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Literature/7000SXT%20Spec%20Sheet%2042802.pdf

Even at the low picture resolution anyone with basic electronic knowledge can easily see that the Fleck board is multiple generations newer and higher technology than the Clack PCB.

The Fleck PCB looks to be multiple layer (hard to see) with SMD components and assembly, and a large four-sided surface mounted chip.

You touted yourself in previous threads as an electronics man working at GE in the 60's. Have you forgotten everything you know or are you just this stubborn?

Find yourself a first year EE student or any TV repair person and have them explain the differences between these boards to you. Better yet, call your ex-Fleck engineers at Clack and have them explain the differences between their board and Fleck's SXT board to you. Maybe then you'll believe the truth... but I doubt it.

You just keep opening your mouth to change feet.
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 05:52 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:
Control valve circuit boards may look different than a board in a TV converter box, computer etc. etc. because control valve circuit boards are made to be used outdoors, indoors, in high or low humidity with very wide range temperature fluctuations and environmental conditions while TV converter box boards are not.


There is NOTHING in the design, components, or assembly of the Clack WS1 board pictured here... http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/3a692fb9fc.jpg
that makes it suitable for exposure to the elements in any way. Every connection on that board is exposed to air, moisture, and UV. There is not one single connection on this Clack WS1 board that is environmentally protected or potted. Ask your ex-Fleck engineer buddies at Clack about that.
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 06:21 pm
@Hunter208,
Find out what the hardness and other water test results are first. It is too difficult to determine what you need without knowing all the conditions of your water as well as other aspects of your water use.

I prefer twin tank systems as they provide endless softened water service and adjust automatically with varying water use. I like the Kinetico brand as they are non-electric.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2008 04:26 pm
@justalurker,
Justalurker, yeah the .pdf file with the teeny picture that the quality gets really bad when you zoom in is what I saw and told you you could probably find on Fleck's site. I can zoom pictures to very LARGE but I didn't see all the waterproofing and high techie stuff you say you can see.

Also, sorry, even with all your personal attacks and ranting about things I didn't say, infer or imply, I still don't see anything in my statement that is incorrect. Although I seriously want to discuss things, you sound very angry and are being argumentative and personally attacking me. Can you please simply discuss differences of opinions without all the rest of that?

If you want to try it... as a customer of mine or otherwise, how many failures of Clack circuit boards have you heard of? Give us an actual number.
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2008 05:01 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

Justalurker, yeah the .pdf file with the teeny picture that the quality gets really bad when you zoom in is what I saw and told you you could probably find on Fleck's site. I can zoom pictures to very LARGE but I didn't see all the waterproofing and high techie stuff you say you can see.

Also, sorry, even with all your personal attacks and ranting about things I didn't say, infer or imply, I still don't see anything in my statement that is incorrect.


I have no trouble seeing sufficient detail in the PDF file but be that as it may...

The Clack board is a simple and elementary design using discrete components that are assembled and soldered on the board very much like any hobbyist would on their bench at home.

The Fleck board avails itself of more recent technology such as "SMD" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-mount_technology. The advantages to these devices and assembly technique are well documented and easy to find.

Gary Slusser wrote:
"control valve circuit boards are made to be used outdoors, indoors, in high or low humidity with very wide range temperature fluctuations and environmental conditions while TV converter box boards are not".


In fact, neither the Clack WS1 or the Fleck SXT circuit board are properly designed for exposure to the conditions you stated they are. Neither board is potted (connections sealed from environmental exposure) or provides any protection whatsoever from water or humidity or hot or cold.

Having personal preference in what you sell online and through other people's self-help forums is one thing but misinforming readers and outright misrepresenting facts and then feigning innocence is very amusing.

Based on your own statements that you have an extensive electronic background dating back to GE in the 60's in previous threads arguing (no, not politely discussing, but arguing) the singular and unique merits (that only you perceive) of the Clack WS1 control valve and it's circuit board I have repeatedly provided you with detailed pictures illustrating your grossly inaccurate mis-statements you have maintained.

So, if you have the requisite electronic knowledge you profess to have, we are left to the conclusion that you simply refuse to correct your incorrect statements or you've decided to forget everything you know about electronics since you've become an online water softener huckster.

Which is it? The people who come to these forums looking for accurate and unbiased information would like to know.



Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 02:17 pm
@justalurker,
OMG!! Justalurker you must be right! a simple and elementary design... not properly designed for exposure to the conditions.... Neither board is potted...

I guess your favorite softener, the French owned centuries old technology water powered nonelectric Kinetico, is the only way to go!
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 02:40 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:
I guess your favorite softener, the French owned centuries old technology water powered nonelectric Kinetico, is the only way to go!


Centuries old water power technology works fine for hydroelectric dams so powering a water softener with water power should be a no-brainer for a thinking man (or woman). Centuries old water power costs nothing and if there's no water pressure then the need for a water softener is moot. Centuries old water power is most likely producing the electricity to power the electric driven softeners you sell. Electricity produced from centuries old water power is more environmentally conscious than electricity produced at coal-fired power plants.

Non-electric softeners lend themselves particularly well to installations where electric power is not available, or would cost a lot or be very difficult to provide, and when high humidity or rain is a consideration.

Like gravity, centuries old water power is free and readily available. It's interesting that you decry physics and yet the operating principles of the ion exchange water softening process is physics and chemistry. Your position that physics is only good inside a water softener but not to run the softener is curious or is it just a sales oriented position?

Physics is our friend... well, my friend.
 

Related Topics

Poo-tee-weet? - Question by boomerang
Let's just rename them "Rapeublicans" - Discussion by DrewDad
Which wood laminate flooring? - Question by Buffalo
Metal Roofs pros & con s - Question by Swimpy
Buying a new entry door - Question by sozobe
Need water help - Question by richierich
Lifesource Water versus a 'salt' system - Discussion by USBound
Rainsoft - Discussion by richb1
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 12/03/2021 at 11:52:58