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Why agnosticism isn't a rational position

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:07 pm
fresco wrote:
Real Life

No,

The theist or agnostic might argue that if "God" is a "supernatural being" then "he" might chose "not to reveal himself ." If this thesis is adopted, the proposer can no longer talk in terms of "traditional knowledge".


If you believe that God has chosen not to reveal Himself, then do you also believe He failed? Because many people, most in fact, know that God exists.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:11 pm
Perhaps "hopes" is better word than "knows" in this case real life ?

Many who "knew" have come to realise they didn't "know" but just "hoped" really really hard. They also realised that those around them who professed to "know" also did not, but would never admit it.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:12 pm
real life wrote:
If you believe that God has chosen not to reveal Himself, then do you also believe He failed?
Does that mean he has not taken his clothes off yet? Or is god naked because he has not sinned?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:14 pm
Eorl wrote:
If there was intelligent design of anything in the universe, would we not expect to find some sign of it somewhere? Shouldn't there be at least one clue?
I believe in intelligent design. I looked at the back of my watch and it said Casio.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:07 pm
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:
fresco wrote:
Real Life

No,

The theist or agnostic might argue that if "God" is a "supernatural being" then "he" might chose "not to reveal himself ." If this thesis is adopted, the proposer can no longer talk in terms of "traditional knowledge".


If you believe that God has chosen not to reveal Himself, then do you also believe He failed? Because many people, most in fact, know that God exists.


Perhaps "hopes" is better word than "knows" in this case real life ?

Many who "knew" have come to realise they didn't "know" but just "hoped" really really hard. They also realised that those around them who professed to "know" also did not, but would never admit it.


I think know is the more accurate word.

When I pray regarding something over which I have no control or influence and my prayer is answered, and this happens repeatedly, then "hopes' is not accurate.

Fresco wants to propose that God has not revealed Himself, but actually He has. The Bible accurately portrays God's relationship to man and how that relationship is established.

If anyone wants to test this, it is very simple.

1. Determine from the Bible how and under what conditions God says He will answer prayer.

2. Be sure you are continually meeting those conditions.

3. Pray often and specifically regarding your request.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:13 pm
I burned a bible once, does that count? Seriously I did!
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:14 pm
Oh I get it now....you have to say "please don't send a Tsunami tomorrow to kill me and my entire town and every living relative I have".

I guess the devil really is in the details, huh?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:18 pm
Eorl,

Now, you know better than that. Is that why you don't believe in God? Because bad things happen? I don't understand. So many ticked off because God didn't make us all perfect little robots so there would be no bad in this world and yet when their is bad they will blame God for that too.

You can't have it both ways. You get free will and there is right and wrong and good and bad or you don't get free will and you can be a robot.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:39 pm
Eorl wrote:
Oh I get it now....


Apparently not.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:40 pm
Momma, I didn't say that.

Real life is proposing that if just one of the Tsunami victims had prayed properly and was lucky enough to guess the Tsunami would happen, then it could have been prevented.

This also implies that his god had the power to prevent it, but chose not to.

(Reminds me of "Hitchhikers Guide" - "The rezoning plans have been at your galactic hub for centuries, no use complaining now !!! <boom>.")

I don't believe in gods because there is no reason to and many reasons not to, including the logical impossibility of true gods.... just like I don't believe in Santa Claus.

I do think Jesus probably existed and I do think St Nicholas probably existed, though both were ordinary men like me.

I'm not mad at any theoretical gods, rather I get mad at people who think things like the Tsunami are acts of gods....gods over whom they claim to have an influence.

I get really mad when I see someone escaping the Twin Towers saying "God must have been watching over me!!! "- not even realising that they are effectively saying "God chose NOT to save YOUR husband/daughter/etc.....must have been bad people huh?"
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:44 pm
Oh and one more thing real life;

Just because you pray and it works (even if it works in a statistical provable way) it doesn't prove the god in question actually exists.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:53 pm
Eorl,

Can I ask you a question? Do you really believe that when someone says something about God watching out over them like you put in that post they on the other hand thought they are thinking that God did not do that for someone else because they were bad people?

Let me see if I can explain this. Yes, I attribute everything in my life to God. The good and the bad. I am blessed by the good as well as the bad. The bad things are the things that make me a stronger person and more able to cope. The bad are the things I learn the biggest lessons from.

Eorl, I may pray for other people if they are not Christians but when I do I am not thinking "God they are bad people and will go to hell." Eorl, think about it. If I or any other Christian went around thinking that all the people we know and don't know that aren't saved are going to hell, can you imagine how anyone could live with those thoughts?

No one can. That is why we are to love everyone Eorl. We love people. We don't think they are bad people because they are not Christians. I have never thought that because God spared me or someone in my life from a seemingly life threatening situation and yet someone else lost their life that they were a bad person and God was punishing them. Not once.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:12 am
Momma, a god that chooses not to save a six year old from cystic fibrosis is either...

a) cruel
b) powerless
c) not there

I'll take c)

Please don't gimme any "mysterious ways" in response!

Don't worry, I don't think people who believe praying directly effects their lives are conscious of the flipside of that belief (ie what that god is choosing to do to everyone else) so therefore yours is a presumed cruelty through ignorance rather than deliberately mean. Have a think about it for me?
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:15 am
Or maybe powerful to the possible limit of power?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:15 am
Eorl,

I won't say that I don't understand what you are saying because I do. But, you did not answer me about something.

If you think that God should step in and fix all the ills of the world that would mean man would have no choice in life.

Would you rather have free will or would you rather be a robot? :wink:
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:22 am
It's not about free will, it's about the condition that we are in. We can still be free but in a universe that has no possibility of bad events happening.

I think that everything being a part of God's plan, implies some sort of lack of free will.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:25 am
Eorl wrote:
Momma, a god that chooses not to save a six year old from cystic fibrosis is either...

a) cruel
b) powerless
c) not there

I'll take c)

Please don't gimme any "mysterious ways" in response!

Don't worry, I don't think people who believe praying directly effects their lives are conscious of the flipside of that belief (ie what that god is choosing to do to everyone else) so therefore yours is a presumed cruelty through ignorance rather than deliberately mean. Have a think about it for me?
God has promised to set all things straight.

I realize this is a difficult cup for one who is suffering to drink.

But if you were to live a thousand years, would you be able to forget 10 years, 50 years, even 100 years of pain?

This is what God has promised.

And more. Think of what the world would be like if Adam and Eve had not sinned. That is God's purpose and it will come to be.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:28 am
Ray, not a god then just a demi-god?

Momma, I don't think any gods should step in and do anything because there aren't any and they've never stepped in and done anything, so the question isn't relevant.

However, if a god can step in and prevent just one "ill of the world" then he is culpable for all the ills that he chooses not to get involved with.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:34 am
Eorl,

Sounds like God is between a rock and a hard place with you my friend. :wink:
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:35 am
neologist wrote:
God has promised to set all things straight.


Indeed, he would wouldn't he.

The righting of all the wrongs of life is the very first thing I'd build into any religion. The punters are gonna LOVE it !! That, and eternal life, so my grandma isn't really rotting in a box, and I don't need to fear death. Yeah, that'll go down great !!

One of the founding pillars of my athiesm is that given the hypothetical situation that no gods ever existed, what would the world and humanity look like today?.....why, EXACTLY like it does now ! Religion is an inevitable consequence of human nature.
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