Astrology vs Superstition

She joined this site you know. I don't expect her to participate much due to her other commitments but it was a pleasant suprise to see her name on the member list.

....One of the sexiest minds around! (as she's been told many many times)

Heartly amen to that. I suspected she'd been told many a time so I haven't bothered.

I'd give up my share of the mind control if I knew how to lure her into posting here.

Monger, sorry to have offended you.

I generally think of human beings as the one animal on earth that has the power of mind to imagine all sorts of unreality that can still seem real simply by virtue of imagined image. We can imagine that we have souls, that stones have souls, that there are supernatural beings that control various aspects of our lives, that the positions of stars have an affect on us, that dead people come back to life, that the ghosts of the dead visit us with messages from the underworld, that our dreams tell the future, and much more. Not only are we able to imagine these things, we give them credence and spend significant amounts of time dealing with them. We need to placate the spirit in the rock, or somehow get the god in the clouds to make the rain fall.

Everyone of the above I would call a superstition. Happily, most of these superstitions do not get real respect in our society. However, there are some really big superstitions that get developed into a well thought out system that attempts to explain everything that exists. Most of the worlds great religions fall in this category. These superstitions get a lot of respect.

Christianity, one of the more widely accepted of these, recognizes that at rock bottom there is no reason to believe in the whole construct, so as one means of trying to lend added respectability, they have the concept of Faith. Saying that one has faith is a sort of high toned way of saying one believes in things that he/she otherwise would find incredible. The writer of the book of Hebrews defined faith as "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence things not seen." It's a nearly perfect definition. The things hoped for have no substance and there is no evidence except belief. Definitions of faith are a sort of verbal slight of hand thought up to disguise the truth that religion is superstition.

So the main difference between religion and superstition is just several layers of sophisticated verbiage.

I might add that it is this same power of imagination that is responsible for most of the glory of humankind; yes, and the despair, too.

Monger,

Taking a stab at your other question about the difference between Christianity and Astrology: They are both superstitions; however, Christianity is by far the more sophisticated. In its most modern manifestations it manages to drape itself in the mantle of science and such philosophical concepts as seem appropriate to the purpose. It offers a comprehensive explanation of all that exists. To its credit it tends to discredit Astrology. At worst, it will admit the powers of astrologers, but attribute those powers to Satan, yet another superstition.

Astrology is much more limited in scope.

Very well and succinctly put. But that is an epistomological distinction. The pragmatic distinction is the degree to which one or the other can make your life a living hell--religions are certainly the winner in that category, hands down.



I found this idea rather elegant--Alexander III of Macedon is known as Alexander the Great. But that holds up only if you ascribe to him the military competence of his father's officers, who ran his operations for him, and administered in his wake the empire accumulated, but largely ignored by him. Further, it helps to know only a little about the man, because familiarity reveals a homicidal egomaniac who would--and once did--kill his best friend if he thought he was in his way.

Setanta, I agree with your pragmatic distinction between religion and superstition.

Taking into account that all people are different, I have met those who seem to find peace and happiness in religion. They possess the faculty of being able to filter out some of crushing negativity and to see only what seems beautiful. Sometimes they seem to enjoy this state of existence over a long period of years. Sometimes not that long. In the course of ordinary life, I generally try to leave them to their own thoughts, but I think that in these on-line discussions, a lot of interesting feelings come to light.

Although i see your point here, Hazlitt, i remain sceptical of the value of religion. I would suggest rather that in the case of these folks, seemingly at peace with themselves and the world, that religion were more ornamental than crucial. I've always (as an adult, at least) believed that religion never made a bad man good, nor did the want of the benefit of clergy make a good man bad.

Setana, I think we are in basic agreement on this matter of religion. I generally say there are good religious people and bad, in about the same proportion as in the population in general. The same is true of non-religious people. I have an aversion to the words "always" and "never" when it comes to describing human behavior, because there is so much variation and individual difference in people. We are always (there I go, using that word) looking for some general principle that we can apply to everyone. Something like, "All human beings in all cases act out of selfish motive." I don't necessarily want to discuss this particular point, but it is the kind of statement that I tend to take exception to.

May I say that I've very much enjoyed your posts.

[Curly of the Three Stooges voice]Oh, thank you very much, likewise i'm sure[/Curly of the Three Stooges voice]

I too, like Setanta, found your explanation here on superstition, faith & religion profound.

One other point in addition to your well put views on the difference between Astrology & Christianity is that Astrology isn't capable of the "believe it or go to hell" angle. Because of that, I personally view anyone who claims Christianity "just in case there is a hell" (there are plenty like that although they usually won't admit it) as far more superstitious than those who believe in Astrology.



I am personally not so quick to discount every instance of so-called "paranormal" occurences. In addition, I believe that this metapsychic phenomena can be better explained by the spirit hypothesis than by any other. (Not that this has any relevance, but I just read today that Sigmund Freud once said that if he had his life to live over again he would study parapsychology.)
Despite my views on this however, looking at human behavior as objectively as I can, all paths lead me to support the hypothesis that "God" is the combination of projection and transference of a given culture's (and individual's) ideals and ideal relationships onto an unseen (yet psychically, very real) entity.
On the other side, to quote something I read recently, it's hard to look at the DNA sequence for a particular trait and not say (speaking as a software engineer), "You know, that looks a lot like machine code! And that, in turn, presupposes a programmer, a Creator!" At the same time, this is far removed from the idea of a personal, loving, Christian God who cares about us individually and will somehow rescue us from extermination at death.
To those who do believe: Don't get me wrong, I very much hope that there is a loving God. However, I do believe that religion is very much man-made, and that if God does exist, "he" appears to be absolutely silent towards me, other than in my dreams, hopes and fantasies (though these are products of my mind). I don't say any of this to be disrespectful, and I'm painfully aware of how emotional an issue religion is (I myself grew up in a fanatical Christian group which my family is still a part of), but rather I say it in the spirit of honest exploration.

Monger, thank you for your kind comments.

On the question of the exact mechanism whereby we come by our concepts of god, I fear that I don't have the proper knowledge upon which to make a sound judgment. At one time I thought it all stemmed from a sort of left over childishness that craved a supernatural parent who could love and comfort us in our cosmic doubts, and be the source of assurance about where we came from and where we are going. A psychologist friend of mine, who by the way is a Christian mystic, thinks that is the mechanism used by god himerself to make us aware of the divine existence. I would agree with you, with the reservation that I have limitations in knowledge, that, as I think you are saying, we project onto god the personal and social morality and values of our own cultures. I really think, for example that most people today would not recognize the Pre-Christianity of Jesus or the Christianity of Paul if they could go, via time machine, back to those days for a visit.

Interesting thought there, with the going back in time thing.
Perhaps I chose the wrong super-hero power.

I'd love to study more on all these subjects in the future. Cheers mate.

Very well said, Hazlit, very well done!
The juxtaposition in which you compared
Christianity's myths of heaven and hell
and the fear of hell, really is just as much
a superstition as is of fear of black cats, or
breaking a mirror, or walking under a
ladder. I genuinely enjoyed the way that
all just rolled off your tongue.....or, off
your keyboard,
SamFranTastic!

Aw, shucks, Babs. You're just too kind.

just an interesting aside:

for all the hooplah surrounding the Scopes monkey trial in Tennessee in the 1920's, it is interesting to note that what really got him in trouble, what lead to his prosecution, was that he quoted a quip to another teacher, who reported his "sacrelige"--"God created man, and man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment."

Setanta, you come up with a lot of things I didn't know about: the Scope quip, and the story about Alexander. Pretty interesting.

I DO SO agree with Jespah,
Phoenix and Monger.
What creates this kind
of laziness in us, or is it
fear, which holds us back
from our dreams - ever
hoping, daring to be fulfilled???
When will WE GRAB IT!!!
AS IN: The brass ring, the
ride up in the hot air balloon,
the ride down as you parachute
from an airplane, that tingling
sensation in your belly as you
place your art(whatever kind)
in that competition ... take a
chance, dare to be challenged
to grow far beyond your wildest
dreams
Take that road less traveled,
Take that $10,000 dream vacation
to Tahiti or Hawaii, or Tibet,
Go for a month!!
So what, it means taking a
chance, take out a 2nd
mortgage on your home.
Do you know, with any certainty
at all, that you will be here
tomorrow to inhabit that same
home that can hang about your
neck like a noose or cushion
your fall if you fail.

Hope I'm getting all these little gadgets right in my "message body."

Oh, I don't know, I'm a Gimini and I like to study everything, which I have or will. The 3 wisemen were astrologers, that must be something favorable. Actually, I understand people if I know their "sign." Sure, even my pets. I note that all Cancer men love their moms (or hate them, yes there is the negative) , Scorpios have a mean side (can be a scorpion, but also an eagle), Pieces is totally irresponsible (but can be angelic), etc. etc.

So, we're on this planet for our 80 +or- years, we have to have something to do all day every day, and there are all those books, all those web sites now. I want to know EVERYTHING and I don't brand anything "supersticion." If there's a name for it, it exists or existed somewhere., and there WILL be a book about it.

Oh, we are getting so REALISTIC nowadays, we have to be able to SEE it , prove it. Well, that's crap. When I was young I bought stacks of books on everything and FORCED those words, that wisdom, into my young brain. Well, guess what, our minds know exactly what to do with what's on those brainwaves. Live well, live it up, read read read, study study. Then you're right no matter what.

Religion? Oh, geeeez, some people need that, I guess. It gives us order, as crazy kids. You know, something to do for self discipline, how to sit quiet. And, we're with our friends too, can giggle etc.

Tex-Star, it looks like all the gadgets, bells, and whistles are under your control.

Welcome to a2k, by the way.