Who's booty you kissing?

hephzibah wrote:

Nor did God say you will die physically. Your body will die. Or anything else of the likes. If you really want to get technical here.

The god said, "You will die." They did not die. Can you imagine the god saying "You will die physically?" C'mon. Even you should be able to see past this rationalization.

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But that is not what the god said...and what we are discussing here is what the god said.

Exactly. He said you will die. NOT you will die physically.

He said "You will die." Heph...consider why are you twisting logic like this...why you are doing this.

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By the way..."the outcome" of knowing good and evil...according to both the god and the serpent...

...was to become like gods.

If your god did not want them to gain the knowledge of good and evil...the only rational way to interpret that is that the god did not want them to become like gods...not that the god was protecting them from the outcome.

Not so. The knowledge was not something they needed. It's that simple. Are you going to give the keys to your car to an eight year old and tell him to have a good time? Does he have any business driving a car? Can he even see over the steering wheel?

So Frank, let's get technical, since that's the way you seem to have gone with this. Can you show me please where God actually said, "Pssst hey, I don't want them to become like gods."?

Once again, you have an analogy that doesn't fit.

The god acknowledges that they did not know good from bad. After they ate of the fruit and gained the knowledge, the god says: (Genesis 3:22) "The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad!"

That comment makes no sense unless they did not know the difference between good and bad earlier.

It is there in black and white.

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And the first thing the god did after finding that they had become like gods...was to curse them and all the human beings that came after them....and then threw them out of Eden before they ate of the tree of life...which would make them even more god-like.

Hmmm... sounds like the outcome of of knowing good and evil to me. Once again, can you point me to the scripture that says it would make them more God-like?

Yes. In fact, I can do better than that. I can show the scripture that indicates it DID make them more god-like. See Genesis 3:22 mentioned above. Your god is talking. Your god is saying they became god-like as a result of what they did.

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BOTTOM LINE: Unless you have some further quotes that cast a different light on things...we should be able to agree that since...

There are really no further quotes to give that could put it in a different light. Unless of course you can show me the things I asked for.

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...the god told them they would die on the day they ate of the fruit and said nothing about gaining knowledge of good and evil and becoming like gods...

Yes, He didn't tell them something they had no need to know.

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...and the serpent told them they would not die and that they would gain the knowledge of good and evil and become like gods...

Yes he most certainly did.

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...and since they did not die and did gain the knowledge of good and evil and became (according to your god) like gods...

Oh... hold up... according to my God and who else?

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...that we agree the serpent (Satan) was more truthful and forthcoming to Adam and Eve than the god of the Bible.

Right?

Nope. You haven't convinced me. Sorry. However, that was quite challenging. Thank you.

Well...then it appears the problem is that you will not allow yourself to be convinced...rather than that there is no convincing evidence. The evidence is there. The god said one thing; Satan said something quite different. The result comports with what Satan said...and was the opposite of what the god said.

It is all there for you to see.

All you have to do is gain the courage to open your eyes...look at it...recognize it...and acknowledge it.

You will grow in all areas of your life if you do it.

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First of all please accept my apologies. I think I might have been a little gruff yesterday.

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The god said, "You will die." They did not die. Can you imagine the god saying "You will die physically?" C'mon. Even you should be able to see past this rationalization.

You are right Frank, that was pretty weak. However speaking in technical terms, it is correct. He did not say how they would die. He just said they would. So. Shall we try this one more time? Let's look at the whole "story" this time though.

First let me ask you the same question I asked wolf yesterday:

If a person is brain dead but their body is alive, which are they, alive or dead?

Moving on:

Gen 1
24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen 3
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had madejust cunning, he was MOREhe already knew the answer. It is a form of trickery. One I see used here in at A2K quite often actually. Get the person to doubt before you even start throwing facts out there so when you do it appears there is no other way to go but your way. (not speaking of you or anyone else specifically, just stating something I've observed) The other tactic to that is to feed someone the answer you want to get wrapped up in the question you are asking.

So, God created man, but for what purpose?:

Gen 1
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Was not the serpent something that was living and moved on the earth? Yes. So, therefore they had dominion over him. But how did they have dominion over him? Because they were created in the image of God.and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Need I remind you:

Gen 1
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...

They were already "like" God because they were made in His image. The only difference was they did not know good and evil. They did not need to. There was no evil in their lives as I stated once before. Only good. To know about good and evil one must live amongst it. Which is exactly what happened when they gained that knowledge. They were cursed, which they had been prewarned about.

I feel the age old argument coming on that says:

Ha! But the bible contradicts itself here because it says in Gen 1 God created man, then it says in Gen 2 God created man. So which is it?

Gen 1 is the answer. Gen 2 clearly states:

4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens...

ie: let's go into more detail now about what happened when God created all this.

A few questions for you to think about:

If what the serpent was doing was helping, why did he have to be cunning about it?

Why did he ask the questions he did?

Why didn't he just take the fruit himself and say, "Hey Eve, here eat this, this stuff is really good."?

So having said all this lets look at your question again:

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"Who was closer to telling the truth to Adam and Eve...the god...or the serpent?"...is...the serpent.

Was God cunning in any way in telling them "you shall not eat of this tree"? No. He made a statement. You say yes because you feel He was withholding that from them. So the question becomes is it really "withholding" if someone doesn't needand you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Yes. They were already like God because they were created in His image. He was implying they weren't. That is deception in it's rawest form.

So who then was closer to telling the truth? God. No doubt about it.

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hephzibah wrote:

First of all please accept my apologies. I think I might have been a little gruff yesterday.

No need for apologies, Heph...we both agreed that, being human, we will occasionally indulge in sarcasm or "gruffness." I felt no attack from you...and I will not attack you personally...no matter what. I am concerned only with the arguments at this moment.

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The god said, "You will die." They did not die. Can you imagine the god saying "You will die physically?" C'mon. Even you should be able to see past this rationalization.

You are right Frank, that was pretty weak. However speaking in technical terms, it is correct. He did not say how they would die. He just said they would. So. Shall we try this one more time? Let's look at the whole "story" this time though.

First let me ask you the same question I asked wolf yesterday:

If a person is brain dead but their body is alive, which are they, alive or dead?

Don't know. Don't care. I fail to see how this impacts on the question at hand.

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Moving on:

Gen 1
24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen 3
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had madejust cunning, he was MOREhe already knew the answer. It is a form of trickery. One I see used here in at A2K quite often actually. Get the person to doubt before you even start throwing facts out there so when you do it appears there is no other way to go but your way. (not speaking of you or anyone else specifically, just stating something I've observed) The other tactic to that is to feed someone the answer you want to get wrapped up in the question you are asking.

So, God created man, but for what purpose?:

Gen 1
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Was not the serpent something that was living and moved on the earth? Yes. So, therefore they had dominion over him. But how did they have dominion over him? Because they were created in the image of God.and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Need I remind you:

Gen 1
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...

They were already "like" God because they were made in His image. The only difference was they did not know good and evil. They did not need to. There was no evil in their lives as I stated once before. Only good. To know about good and evil one must live amongst it. Which is exactly what happened when they gained that knowledge. They were cursed, which they had been prewarned about.

I feel the age old argument coming on that says:

Ha! But the bible contradicts itself here because it says in Gen 1 God created man, then it says in Gen 2 God created man. So which is it?

Gen 1 is the answer. Gen 2 clearly states:

4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens...

ie: let's go into more detail now about what happened when God created all this.

A few questions for you to think about:

If what the serpent was doing was helping, why did he have to be cunning about it?

Why did he ask the questions he did?

Why didn't he just take the fruit himself and say, "Hey Eve, here eat this, this stuff is really good."?

So having said all this lets look at your question again:

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"Who was closer to telling the truth to Adam and Eve...the god...or the serpent?"...is...the serpent.

Was God cunning in any way in telling them "you shall not eat of this tree"? No. He made a statement. You say yes because you feel He was withholding that from them. So the question becomes is it really "withholding" if someone doesn't needand you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Yes. They were already like God because they were created in His image. He was implying they weren't. That is deception in it's rawest form.

So who then was closer to telling the truth? God. No doubt about it.

Not even close, Heph. Not even close. Satan...the serpent...was much, much closer to the truth.

The god said:: "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."

Satan said "...Ye shall not surely die; for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

They did not die...and their eyes were opened...the knew good from evil...and they were more god like.

We have your god's word on that, Heph. You cannot discount that. Your god, after the fact, said: "...Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (we must cast him out of the garden)..."

There is no question about what the Bible says about these things, Heph.

Satan was much, much closer to the truth than the god....and all that stuff you just posted, repectfully as possible, simply does not impact on that truth.

ONE LAST THOUGHT BEFORE MOVING ON:

I think it is significant...in light of what you had to say about your feelings about men earlier...that you reconsider what you wrote up above (I'll cite the relevent items)...and give consideration to the wording the god used after the eating of the "forbidden fruit."

Specifically...you mentioned that "they" were created in the god's image...that "they" had dominion over the land...etc.

No the god didn't do that at all.

The god very specifically created Adam in its image...and gave Adam dominion over the land. There is no indication in the Bible that the god considered Eve to be in its image at all.

In fact, she is pretty much an afterthought when it became apparent that none of the animals (created before her) were considered a proper companion for Adam. Read Genesis 2:18...and you will see that "women" came only after all the ohter animals were created...and only because the other animals did not prove to be a suitable partner for the man.

Presumably, if a dog or cat had struck up a meaningful relationship with Adam...women would never have been created.

And after the eating of the fruit...the god said..."...Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."

I said "they" became more god-like...but the god of the Bible refers only to Adam in its comments. The woman, Eve, was not worth the bother to the god. She is just a companion for Adam.

Something to think about.

If it is allegory, as I suppose...it is all perfectly understandable. The men writing this stuff would not even bother to address Eve. But if it is what you think it is...the truth...isn't it strange that your god confined itself only to the man...and was so dismissive of the woman?

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It makes me glad to know Adam had such a discerning eye for a helpmeet.

Really, the wiggling in this thread in order to get past the undisputed fact that Satan spoke more truthfully than God is amusing. The story is fatally flawed.

Those who have aspired to control us with religion have always understood that knowledge is a powerful tool. It's not at all surprising that the battle over this tree of knowledge was the crucible by which we were to become forever impure. Yet knowledge is the only lever we've ever had to elevate our lot in life.

And God's against it and Satan's for it? Strange religion.

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I wish someone could answer a question. Why would ANYONE even want to entertain the fact that Satan might have told the truth and God did not? What is with that? Satan throughout the Bible is called the Father of Lies, the Deceiver, etc. If you are going to take any part of the Bible as being true or at face value or at whatever you want to call it, then why is this point ignored?

No tree ~ no choice. No choice ~ no free will. The way I see it, man just seems to be pretty ticked off at the fact that God did not make man perfect as God. So, I am guessing many are taking "man was made in our image (God's image)" literally? But, since it appears that man is not exactly as God is, God, what? Lied about that too?

NEWSFLASH!!!! WA2K-F will no longer be covering this issue. <<<<pretend this is scrolling across the bottom of your screen, please.>>>>

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Momma Angel wrote:

I wish someone could answer a question. Why would ANYONE even want to entertain the fact that Satan might have told the truth and God did not?

Because the facts show that to be the case.

The Bible has words that can be read by humans...whether they are "believers" or not. Those words have meaning.

If the words show Satan telling the truth...and the god not being as truthful as Satan...then anyone (who is not terrified of the god) can easily entertain the idea...and share of it.

MA...in the story of Adam and Eve in the garden...SATAN TOLD THE TRUTH. Whether the god did or not...is problematic...but Satan definitely told Adam and Eve the truth.

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What is with that? Satan throughout the Bible is called the Father of Lies, the Deceiver, etc. If you are going to take any part of the Bible as being true or at face value or at whatever you want to call it, then why is this point ignored?

The point is not ignored. It simply does not apply. The Bible is defective in hundreds of places. This is one of them.

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No tree ~ no choice.

Why do you people insist on this???????

The god, according to you, had just created the "heavens and the earth"...the 250 billion other suns in our galaxy...the hundreds of billions of other galaxies we know about. It had just created atoms, sub-atomic particles, and quantum particles. It had just created time and space...and everything else.

Why on Earth are you folks so sure the best it could come up with is this defective, silly scenario to give human beings free will??????

Except that you have to explain this mess in some way...and that is the only thing you can come up with?

Why?

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No choice ~ no free will. The way I see it, man just seems to be pretty ticked off at the fact that God did not make man perfect as God. So, I am guessing many are taking "man was made in our image (God's image)" literally? But, since it appears that man is not exactly as God is, God, what? Lied about that too?

If you could open your mind...and allow yourself to consider the possibility that the Bible and all its stories are merely the attempts by superstitious, relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated ancient Hebrews to explain the mysteries of existence...

...it all explains itself very, very easily.

Why not try that, MA? Why not try opening your mind to the possibility that the reason it is such a defective book...and needs all this tortured logic and twisted reasoning to 'splain it...is because it is the product of humans trying to explain the damn near unexplainable.

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Frank,

Perhaps one could also ask you "why not try opening YOUR mine the possibility that YOU, perhaps may be in error here?" And please, Frank, don't tell me you already are open-minded. You have made it very clear how you view the thinking of anyone actually daring to believe there might be truth to this story. Being open-minded about something does not include ridiculing others or telling them they are wrong.

If you choose to believe Satan, Frank. You go right ahead. That is certainly your choice. Free will? Get it?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Perhaps one could also ask you "why not try opening YOUR mine the possibility that YOU, perhaps may be in error here?"

My mind is open, MA...and I have considered that the Bible actually describes a real GOD.

I have to make a guess after my considerations.

As I see it, I am left with guessing that the Bible actually tells me the truth...that there is a GOD...and that the GOD acts the way the Bible says IT does....in which case, I must guess that GOD is a scumbag.

Or...I can guess that the Bible is a collection of fables put together by superstitious, relatively unknowlegeable, relatively unsophisticated, ancient Hebrews who wanted a disgusting, violent, murderous, barbaric god to protect them from the disgusting, violent, murderous, barbaric gods of their enemies.

I choose door number one.

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And please, Frank, don't tell me you already are open-minded.

If I didn't, I would bse lying.

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You have made it very clear how you view the thinking of anyone actually daring to believe there might be truth to this story. Being open-minded about something does not include ridiculing others or telling them they are wrong.

You are in way over your head, MA.

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If you choose to believe Satan, Frank. You go right ahead. That is certainly your choice. Free will? Get it?[/color]

This is not about me choosing to "believe" Satan, MA. Try to keep up. I understand how difficult it is for you...but try.

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Frank,

Fine. I'm not going to address this or anything else with you. You are obviously going to continue with your attacks on me personally and I'm not engaging in that.

I wish all the best in the world for you Frank. You are a passionate man in what you believe, but your passion is, at times, offensive and I am not going to engage in it.

Take care.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Fine. I'm not going to address this or anything else with you. You are obviously going to continue with your attacks on me personally and I'm not engaging in that.

I wish all the best in the world for you Frank. You are a passionate man in what you believe, but your passion is, at times, offensive and I am not going to engage in it.

Take care.

Good-bye, once again, MA.

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I think it is significant...in light of what you had to say about your feelings about men earlier...that you reconsider what you wrote up above (I'll cite the relevent items)...and give consideration to the wording the god used after the eating of the "forbidden fruit."

Specifically...you mentioned that "they" were created in the god's image...that "they" had dominion over the land...etc.

No the god didn't do that at all.

The god very specifically created Adam in its image...and gave Adam dominion over the land. There is no indication in the Bible that the god considered Eve to be in its image at all.

In fact, she is pretty much an afterthought when it became apparent that none of the animals (created before her) were considered a proper companion for Adam. Read Genesis 2:18...and you will see that "women" came only after all the ohter animals were created...and only because the other animals did not prove to be a suitable partner for the man.

Presumably, if a dog or cat had struck up a meaningful relationship with Adam...women would never have been created.

And after the eating of the fruit...the god said..."...Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."

I said "they" became more god-like...but the god of the Bible refers only to Adam in its comments. The woman, Eve, was not worth the bother to the god. She is just a companion for Adam.

Something to think about.

Here's something to think about Frank:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

That was below the belt Frank. Totally unnecessary.

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http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000035.gif

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Heph wrote:

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Here's something to think about Frank:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Yeah...that is the other myth concerning creation...which, of course, differs from its counterpart insofar as in the second one, the god gives Adam dominion over the things of the Earth...and there WAS NO EVE when this was happening.

Even more important...there was no garden of Eden or forbidden fruit in that version.

All that stuff occurs in the second myth of creation...and that is what we are discussing, Heph.

So what say we stick with the second myth...and not mix oranges with the apples.

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That was below the belt Frank. Totally unnecessary.

Nothing below the belt in anything I've said, Heph. Your charge itself is unnecessary...inappropriate...and incorrect.

BOTTOM LINE:

The god of the Bible told Adam that if the fruit was eaten..."in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."

The serpent told Eve: "Ye shall not surely die; for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

They did not die...and their eyes were opened. And, according you your god, they became like gods, knowing good and evil.

If there was a liar and a truth-teller in the story...we all know which was which....although some of us seem to have a lot of trouble acknowledging that.

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Frank, if I over-reacted with this I will apologize, however I would like you to please clarify what you meant by this statement:

Frank said:

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I think it is significant...in light of what you had to say about your feelings about men earlier...that you reconsider what you wrote up above...

Were you implying that because I am struggling with my perception of men right now it is influencing how I view this topic?

As far as the rest of what you said, well, there is only one story, not two. I explained that in my previous post as well. The first part where it says all the "them's" is when God created them. The "counterpart", as you refer to it, is the history of creation. A more detailed description of what happened after "they" were created. Even the details of how it went from just Adam to "them".

My apologies to you all for not specifying who I am quoting. I didn't realize there would be any question because of course "I" know who I'm quoting! LOL I will be more conscious of that in the future. Thank you to the one who brought this to my attention. Smile

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hephzibah wrote:

Frank, if I over-reacted with this I will apologize, however I would like you to please clarify what you meant by this statement:

Frank said:

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I think it is significant...in light of what you had to say about your feelings about men earlier...that you reconsider what you wrote up above...

Heph...

...apparently you are supposing that I offered those comments in condemnation of your situation...or as a way of taking advantage of your situation...or mocking it in some way.

I don't do that kind of thing...nor would I tolerate it for a second in others.

You posted several comments that used the word "they" to describe what the god of the Bible supposedly offered to the Earth during biblical creation. You had "them" being offered dominion over the beasts...you had "them" being created in the god's image.

I honestly forgot about the first story of creation in Genesis when I read those words...mostly because I deal almost exclusively with the second story...the one containing the intricacies of the Edenic experience.

In that second story...only Adam is made in the image of the god...and as I noted, the woman was added only after the animals and beasts did not provide Adam with suitable companionship. And there is no indication in the second that the god planned to have Eve share in the "dominion over the animals."

I often call attention to these kinds of things to Christian women, because Christian women should, perhaps even more than Christian men, pay attention to the sound of the music in this work.

This story...and most of the stories of the Bible...show a marked male bias...something one might expect if the stories were the product of men in a male dominated society...and something would not expect from a fair, loving god...which you folks purport this god to be.

I used your comment of just a few posts earlier (about your feelings about men) as a link...and nothing more.

I am willing now to acknowledge that the move could be misjudged...especially by someone going through personal trauma...so I apologize for doing it. I repeat what I said earlier: I don't do that kind of thing...I would not tolerate it for a second in others. There was nothing neferious, underhanded, or below the belt in my intentions.

But I do apologize...and the apology is sincere and not conditional.

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Were you implying that because I am struggling with my perception of men right now it is influencing how I view this topic?

DO NOT MISINTERPRET THIS RESPONSE:

NO! I do not.

I think whatever is influencing you to view this topic as illogically as I perceive your reaction to be...is of much, much longer standing than whatever recent events you are enduring. I think you've got perception problems on this issue...severe perception problems...but they are not occasioned by recent happenings.

(I actually do not know what the events are, Heph. Nor do I know what the situation is with you. I know it has to do with a domestic problem...apparently an impending separation or divorce...but I do not engage in gossip...and I do not frequent the kinds of threads that deal with personal problems. I am not familiar with whatever you've had to say on the subject in a thread you apparently started. In a personal message to me, MA, told me that you were having personal domestic problems...and for me to be understanding if you delayed in responding to my posts. That's all I know about it...except for the post where you talked about think of men as...whatever you said.

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As far as the rest of what you said, well, there is only one story, not two. I explained that in my previous post as well. The first part where it says all the "them's" is when God created them. The "counterpart", as you refer to it, is the history of creation. A more detailed description of what happened after "they" were created. Even the details of how it went from just Adam to "them".

My apologies to you all for not specifying who I am quoting. I didn't realize there would be any question because of course "I" know who I'm quoting! LOL I will be more conscious of that in the future. Thank you to the one who brought this to my attention.

There, in fact, are two stories of creation in the beginning of Genesis. I completely forgot about the first, because my focus was on the second. The second contains the Eden scene...the first does not. My post went to what was said in the second.

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Frank wrote:

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Heph...

...apparently you are supposing that I offered those comments in condemnation of your situation...or as a way of taking advantage of your situation...or mocking it in some way.

Well here's how it went:

My initial response was Oh no HE did NOT!...

So I reread it.

hmmm... kinda sounds like it...

Did he?

reread it again...

Maybe I should ask before I get too wound up here...

*shrugs* So I asked. Here's your answer.

Frank wrote:

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I don't do that kind of thing...nor would I tolerate it for a second in others...

I used your comment of just a few posts earlier (about your feelings about men) as a link...and nothing more.

I am willing now to acknowledge that the move could be misjudged...especially by someone going through personal trauma...so I apologize for doing it. I repeat what I said earlier: I don't do that kind of thing...I would not tolerate it for a second in others. There was nothing neferious, underhanded, or below the belt in my intentions.

But I do apologize...and the apology is sincere and not conditional.

Thank you for clarifying that and apologizing. I apologize for my initial assumption about what you meant and for over-reacting to this comment.

So moving on then:

I said:

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If a person is brain dead but their body is alive, which are they, alive or dead?

I asked this question because it does directly impact the question at hand. It proves that you can be alive and dead at the same time.

As far as the rest of it... Well Frank, you know where I stand. There were not two separate stories. It was in fact one. It is clearly stated I believe. So where do we go from here?

Edit:

Oh yeah, one more thing. I also realized that to say what I said about how I'm feeling about men right now put it out in the open to be "refered to". It made it fair game. I will take responsibility for doing that because I did not have to but it sure did make a good example for my point at the time. Razz

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hephzibah wrote:

Thank you for clarifying that and apologizing. I apologize for my initial assumption about what you meant and for over-reacting to this comment.

So moving on then:

Good.

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I said:

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If a person is brain dead but their body is alive, which are they, alive or dead?

I asked this question because it does directly impact the question at hand. It proves that you can be alive and dead at the same time.

One is either alive or dead. Because we are unable to come to a definition of what constitutes "alive" or "dead" does not change that.

In any case, it truly does not impact on the issue being discussed unless you are saying Adam and Eve became "brain dead" after eating the fruit...especially since the evidence seems to indicate they were even more "brain alive" after doing so.

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As far as the rest of it... Well Frank, you know where I stand. There were not two separate stories. It was in fact one. It is clearly stated I believe. So where do we go from here?

Well, Heph...if you were to go into Google and type in "two stories of creation" you will get over 50 million hits....so it is not so clear cut as you want to make it.

Many Bibles...all Bibles with subheadings...refer to Genesis 1:1...though Genesis 2:4...as the "first story of creation"...and Genesis 2:5 through Genesis chapter 3 as the "second story of creation."

The "first story of creation" simply does not cover the Adam and Eve scenario.

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Edit:

Oh yeah, one more thing. I also realized that to say what I said about how I'm feeling about men right now put it out in the open to be "refered to". It made it fair game. I will take responsibility for doing that because I did not have to but it sure did make a good example for my point at the time.

Let's just let this drop. There was a misunderstanding...we've cleared it up. It (reference to your difficulties) will not happen again.

At some point...we will move on to my third point in this issue...the question of the severity of the punishment considering the offense...and the mitigating circumstances. I have no delusions that we are going anywhere...but I like to finish what I start. Obviously even the words of the Bible are not going to change your thinking on this...and as I pointed out before, I think you are simply too committed to this notion to even consider any revision.

But it has, in any case, been enjoyable discussing these things with someone new.

I'll post later.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

In any case, it truly does not impact on the issue being discussed unless you are saying Adam and Eve became "brain dead" after eating the fruit...especially since the evidence seems to indicate they were even more "brain alive" after doing so.

It makes one wish if one bite caused such fundamental change the two would have continued dining. I wish Eve would have baked him a pie. Some apple turnovers, apple crisps, apple dumplings, on and on, until Adam lay moaning under the tree rubbing his belly and thinking how knowledgeable he was. It would be a great way to start the family.

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tycoon wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case, it truly does not impact on the issue being discussed unless you are saying Adam and Eve became "brain dead" after eating the fruit...especially since the evidence seems to indicate they were even more "brain alive" after doing so.

It makes one wish if one bite caused such fundamental change the two would have continued dining. I wish Eve would have baked him a pie. Some apple turnovers, apple crisps, apple dumplings, on and on, until Adam lay moaning under the tree rubbing his belly and thinking how knowledgeable he was. It would be a great way to start the family.

One has to wonder why Eve disobeyed????

Does the story lead one to think she was willful?

Nothing that I see there indicates that.

Does the story lead one to think she hated or was jealous of the god?

Nothing that I see there indicates that.

Does the story lead one to think they conspired to show god they did not have to do what it ordered them to do?

Very little I see indicates that.

Does the story lead one to think they truly did not know right from wrong...that they were tempted by a very accomplished tempter...and that they did not have the intellectual and experiential wherewithal to recognize the consequenses of their actions...nor the developed willpower to withstand the temptation?

YES, YES, YES, YES, AND YES.

All of those things.

They were naive, unexperienced innoents...who had been deprived of the knowledge of good and evil (by the god)...and who had been placed into temptation way beyond reasonable expectations that they could withstand.

But...for the good folks who want this book to be the true word of their god...and who want everything in it to comport with their visions of an inerrant book...

...this stuff has to be rationalized away so that any possible error or possible inconsistency not be acknowledged.

Hell...if the god would severely punish these poor unfortunates the way he did for that minor transgression...imagine what the god would do to a modern day, sophisticated someone who questioned even for a second the most minor of possible inconsistencies in this book?

So...since the god said they would die...and the evil serpent said they would not, but that their eyes would be opened to the difference between good and evil...

...and since the story has them not dying and their eyes being opened...

...these good folk have to talk about innocence dying...about spirit dying...about brain death and physical death.

If I were one of them...in dread of that god...it is what I would do.

I do not fault them for a minute for what they are doing .

It is what I would do if I were in their position.

You will excuse the expression...but...thank GOD I am not.

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Frank Wrote:

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One is either alive or dead. Because we are unable to come to a definition of what constitutes "alive" or "dead" does not change that.

In any case, it truly does not impact on the issue being discussed unless you are saying Adam and Eve became "brain dead" after eating the fruit...especially since the evidence seems to indicate they were even more "brain alive" after doing so.

You are right we have been unable thus far to come to a definition of what constitutes "dead" or "alive". However once again this proves you can be dead and alive at the same time physically speaking. I believe that is a very important point. Let me further my point though and just state it plainly. Though I'm sure you've heard it 1000 times. Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate of the tree. They severed their spiritual connection with God through that act of disobedience. That is how they were dead and alive at the same time.

Frank wrote:

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Well, Heph...if you were to go into Google and type in "two stories of creation" you will get over 50 million hits....so it is not so clear cut as you want to make it.

Many Bibles...all Bibles with subheadings...refer to Genesis 1:1...though Genesis 2:4...as the "first story of creation"...and Genesis 2:5 through Genesis chapter 3 as the "second story of creation."

The "first story of creation" simply does not cover the Adam and Eve scenario.

Well Frank, I am sure there are over 50 million hits for "two stories of creation". It doesn't surprise me at all that there would be over 50 million people's opinions about there being "two stories" floating around the internet. I'm sure there's actually more that could be pulled up even in just changing the wording of the search a little. However, I am not interested in 50 million different opinions on the "two stories". I am interested in your opinion and how you came to that conclusion.

I have shown you plainly twice how I came to mine, and I didn't need 50 million other peoples opinion to come to that conclusion. I just needed to read what was written for what it says. While I'm not against research I also recognize the need for being able to think and make decisions on my own. To be able to look at something honestly and see the different perspectives on it and then draw my own conclusion. I will listen and do my best to see things from different perspectives. However, I will not look to 50 million other people to help me make a decision on something that is already in black and white in the very book we are looking at.

Frank wrote:

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Let's just let this drop. There was a misunderstanding...we've cleared it up. It (reference to your difficulties) will not happen again.

Thank you. Consider it dropped.

Frank wrote:

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At some point...we will move on to my third point in this issue...the question of the severity of the punishment considering the offense...and the mitigating circumstances. I have no delusions that we are going anywhere...but I like to finish what I start. Obviously even the words of the Bible are not going to change your thinking on this...and as I pointed out before, I think you are simply too committed to this notion to even consider any revision.

But it has, in any case, been enjoyable discussing these things with someone new.

Frank, please show me what words of the bible you are speaking about. Because I've shown you in the bible where it states the "second story" is actually the history of creation. So what exactly am I missing here? You have yet to even mention or address that point in any way except to say, "no, it's two stories". It's not a matter of commitment to a notion. It is a commitment to what I believe and the reasons I believe it. What I believe is in black and white in the book we are talking about. I am willing to listen and even research the things you say are wrong. So far I have not found an argument presented by you that cannot be explained from this book. Not my just my opinion but the actual words that were written within the book in question.

I am having a wonderful time with this discussion. It is very challenging to all that I think and believe. I'm not afraid to challenge those things. They should be challenged, especially if they are based in a "myth" as you and many others say. So I hope that we can continue this conversation. I am looking forward to discussing the next point.

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