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Can the US/UK Get Out Before the Civil War Starts in Iraq?

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2006 10:43 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Invasion was better than taking a chance on the total destruction of some city by WMDs a few years down the road.


That's your hypothesis. In fact, that remains to be seen.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2006 11:33 pm
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Invasion was better than taking a chance on the total destruction of some city by WMDs a few years down the road.


That's your hypothesis. In fact, that remains to be seen.

It does not remain to be seen, since it does not depend on any future event. In our view, the probability of WMD in the hands of a madman was high enough at that moment to necessitate invasion.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2006 11:40 pm
It does indeed remain to be seen what the situation will look like "a few years down the road", unless you have the ability to foresee what the future will look like and that it will, in any case, be much brighter than the "probability of WMD in the hands of a madman".
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2006 11:43 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
In our view


By the way, I find it a bit odd that you're writing in the pluralis majestatis....
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 01:03 am
old europe wrote:

By the way, I find it a bit odd that you're writing in the pluralis majestatis....


We, Brandon, the elected people of the USA ...


Agree totally with your analysis, especially re the Kurds in Turkey.

I suppose, sooner or later the Kurds will really get autonomy in Turkey. But I think as well, such might become another Northern Ireland.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 01:39 am
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
In our view


By the way, I find it a bit odd that you're writing in the pluralis majestatis....

We have an uncle whose friend's grandfather was a Duke.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 05:24 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:

...We see here the value of not winning a war against Iraq, but waiting until the USA/UK have thrown everything into chaos...

It's a perverse way of looking at it. The US and UK tried to replace the vacuum caused by the old regime's defeat with a constitutional democracy, and have spent a lot of energy and money trying to rebuild infrastructure. The chaos has been caused by the insurgents throwing bombs in every direction, and taking hostages for blackmail.


I wasn't ignoring this. I forgot. No one is supposed to point the finger of blame at the mistaken invaders. Is it, in ya'll's view, not the fault of the US/UK that their attempt "to replace the vacuum caused by the old regime's defeat with a constitutional democracy" was under-militarized, under-equipped and proceeded on assumptions, like 'we will pay for the war with the oil money.' that now look pathetically naive? You are right about them spending a lot of energy and money trying to rebuild infrastructure. You haven't heard much about how well that is going lately because it hasn't been going well lately. Have you seen the latest figures on oil production? Or phones, or water, or electricity?

Meanwhile:
Quote:
The chaos has been caused by the insurgents throwing bombs in every direction, and taking hostages for blackmail.
Yes. Those totally unexpected, no one could have predicted, on their last throes last August, insurgents-- in the words of the Sundance Kid, "Who are those guys?" A better question, and one that I have been asking for two years, is "Who else in the region wants a constitutional democracy in Iraq?" Would it be the sheiks of the UAE or the House of Saud? How about the Jordanians or the Syrians, not the people, their leaders? Who, besides us and Tony Blair, wants democracy, (unless of course, some folks like Hamas win the elections.)?

Who would benefit most from the establishment of the Islamic Republic of Iraq? It is not an accusation, it is a question.

Joe("Alhamdulillah.")Nation
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 05:26 am
Sorry, I also forgot to ask what your map is going to look like, Brandon?

Thanks.

J
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 05:46 am
bm

(hello, again, Joe.
Thanks for a very interesting & informative thread!)
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George
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 08:08 am
As a fundamentally lazy soul and a poor cartographer, I guess "no
change." In 2010 Kurdistan is part of Iraq because it is in its best
interests. The region is all but independent, the local legislature calls
itself the National Assembly, the flags of Iraq and Kurdistan are seen in
about the same ratio as the Maple Leaf and Fleur-de-Lis flags are seen in
Quebec.

Sunni-Shia violence drags on and on, sometimes spiking to the brink
of "all-out" civil war and sometimes declining to where one can almost
see that light at the end of the tunnel. The Shia get aid from Iran but
these Arabs do not want to be part of Persia.

The Sunni mishmash of jihadis, Sunni supremacists, secular rejectionists,
and hard-core Baathists yearn to overthrow the invaders and subjugate
the Shiites and get on with fighting among themselves.

Coalition troops remain, their governments having determined that they
cannot be brought home "just yet."
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:05 pm
My map would look very much like Walter's but Kurdistan would look more like that of old europe. I think both southern Iraq and Kurdistan would be dominated by their neighbors, Turkey and Iran, but would be technically independent. Sort of like the relationship between Russia and Belarus.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:22 pm
In talking with several people today, they assured me that the map will not change, but then I reminded them of the numerous changes to the world's map in the past twenty years- Germany, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia-

The deeper the sectarian divides, the greater the possibility of Iraq disintegrating into three or more pieces. It's also possible that Iraq will emerge from the present situation as a stable, varied society with religious and civilian leadership joining together to lead their people.


It's also possible that the Chicago White Sox will win the World Series.

The Sunnis re-joined the talks today... and in the NYTIMES
Quote:
"The young spiritual leader of the Shiite militiamen, Moktada al-Sadr, made his first appearance in Iraq since the paroxysm of violence. He arrived in the southern port city of Basra from a trip to Iran, and, in a rare public speech, called for unity between Shiites and Sunnis while demanding a timetable for the withdrawal of American forces.

Blaming the American military for the recent violence, he told Iraqis to "cut off the head of the snake." Thousands of followers, some waving Kalashnikov rifles, cheered in the streets.



Oh yeah. I feel much better.

Joe(hand me that red pencil)Nation
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:57 pm
OH! A make-your-own-map thread! Very cool.

So, at first blush I was going to go with Old Europe, who speaks sense. But on second thought I think I'll opt for Walter's map as the more probable.

The world has become increasingly used, and to a point tolerant, of minorities splitting off into their own states. See the former Soviet Union, the former Yugoslavia.

The previously holy principle of national sovereignty has been relativated (luckily, IMO) to the point where NATO troops entered a war that could easily be predicted to eventually lead to Kosovo independence (wont be long now anymore).

If Iraq had already had state borders under Saddam like the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia has individual 'republics' and/or territories, I believe the internationals/occupiers would already be steering now towards some kind of regulated split-up.

It is the absence of agreed-upon borders they fear most of all, and thats whats (sensibly) holding them back from any opening to split-up scenarios in Iraq. (Note that all the new countries that have come to be recognized abroad these past 15 years were based on already-existing borders, while more new-fangled states like the separatist Northern part of Somalia remain unacknowledged).

However, where secession without clear borders is already much more strongly resisted (think also Republika Srpska), annexation by another country or some sort of 'Anschluss' to an external country, seems still very much taboo. The last taboo, perhaps, but much stronger stuff needs to happen still than anything weve seen in Iraq so far for any world power to just shrug at Iran annexing swathes of Iraq, whether the populace agrees or not.

The Iraqi Shi'ite authorities themselves, each a national leader in his own heart, might actually not be all that eager to subserviently enter under the sovereign religious/political authorities of Iran either.

No, Walter's map might have a better chance. And whether the Shi'ite state then becomes an all-but-nominal extension of Iran, or whether the three states eventually again come to exist in some form of rudimentary umbrella arrangement like in current Bosnia (at best) - that would take another ten years to be born out...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 11:42 pm
nimh wrote:
No, Walter's map might have a better chance.


It's actually not drawn by me ... didn't draw maps since I've left the naval college :wink:
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 05:15 am
For those who missed it.\\

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4777/clipboard36pv.jpg

At the end of the World Wars, it seems to me, officials have been quick to draw new boundaries for places, sometimes with better results than others. Wasn't Iraq, as it is now defined, just the result of some 1930's British cartographers' work of an afternoon or two? The nice straight lines are always a giveaway. There were some reports after Saddam's invasion of Kuwait that he was just reclaiming an Iraqi province that had escaped Iraqi authority by virtue of that same set of pens and protractors.

Other examples abound: French Indo-China becomes North and South Viet Nam 1954, about the same time as John Foster Dulles was drawing the permanent North/South line in Korea. (Laos, which had been part of the French possession, had been split off from FIChina in 1907. )

The multiple parts of Europe were separated by the Iron Curtain, a term that almost everyone under forty will have to look up. Here, I'll help.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/img/hi07003.gif

(Boy, I love the Internet.) And, of course, there is Northern Ireland to be considered and, let's not forget, the entire continent of Africa which Europeans have been merrily redrawing lines on for the past three centuries. (Did I mention sometimes with better results than others?)

So far there is nothing about dividing Iraq in the various media, except for this thread, and I take that as a good sign.

Joe(See? I can be optimistic.)Nation

Btw: I've arranged for a shipment of vowels to be sent to Republika Srpska, there being an apparent shortage of them in that locale.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 06:33 am
Quote:
Can the US/UK Get Out Before the Civil War Starts in Iraq?



Ooops ! ! ! Too late . . .
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 07:16 am
Joe Nation wrote:
In talking with several people today, they assured me that the map will not change, but then I reminded them of the numerous changes to the world's map in the past twenty years- Germany, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia-

The deeper the sectarian divides, the greater the possibility of Iraq disintegrating into three or more pieces. It's also possible that Iraq will emerge from the present situation as a stable, varied society with religious and civilian leadership joining together to lead their people.


It's also possible that the Chicago White Sox will win the World Series.

The Sunnis re-joined the talks today... and in the NYTIMES
Quote:
"The young spiritual leader of the Shiite militiamen, Moktada al-Sadr, made his first appearance in Iraq since the paroxysm of violence. He arrived in the southern port city of Basra from a trip to Iran, and, in a rare public speech, called for unity between Shiites and Sunnis while demanding a timetable for the withdrawal of American forces.

Blaming the American military for the recent violence, he told Iraqis to "cut off the head of the snake." Thousands of followers, some waving Kalashnikov rifles, cheered in the streets.



Oh yeah. I feel much better.

Joe(hand me that red pencil)Nation


Don't forget about the importance of natural resources.
Who's got 'em; who wants 'em; who needs 'em.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 07:56 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Btw: I've arranged for a shipment of vowels to be sent to Republika Srpska, there being an apparent shortage of them in that locale.

Not the only thing they've got a lack of... though the island of Krk, mind you, is Croatian and, I hear, actually quite lovely...
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George
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 08:02 am
http://imageserver4.textamerica.com/user.images.x/83/IMG_454783/_0402/TZ200402113730103.jpg
To the rescue!
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 08:50 am
Joe Nation wrote:
At the end of the World Wars, it seems to me, officials have been quick to draw new boundaries for places, sometimes with better results than others. Wasn't Iraq, as it is now defined, just the result of some 1930's British cartographers' work of an afternoon or two? The nice straight lines are always a giveaway. [..] Other examples abound: French Indo-China becomes North and South Viet Nam 1954, about the same time as John Foster Dulles was drawing the permanent North/South line in Korea. (Laos, which had been part of the French possession, had been split off from FIChina in 1907. )

All true, but you'll also notice that people havent gotten away with carving new borders in the sand (or clay or forest) anymore in those last 50 years... Even ethnic insurgents trying to carve their own state out of non-existence have been quite systematically ignored or renounced in the same 50 years.

The dissolution of the former Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia are markedly different in the sense that the world accepted and recognized the new states exactly to the extent that they fell apart, literally, along the seams; that is, along the borders of the individual republics that already, nominally, made up constituent parts of the respective federations before.

Attempts to go beyond that, on the other hand, have met with consistently stiff resistance. Croatia, Bosnia, even Kosovo (soon) - ok. But a Republika Srpska, Krajina, or independence for the Albanian part of Macedonia - no can do. Moldova, yes; Transdniestria or Gagauzia - no.

Even entities that tried to secede along already existing adminstrative borders that were of lower than primary republican level - ie, the autonomous republics within Georgia or Russia (Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia) that tried to in turn split off - were wholly ignored, apart from Kosovo (and that only after the war - and after a decade of non-violent resistence that was scandalously ignored by the West for exactly this reason).

Instead, there was always the tightrope of condemning separatism while urging the national government to accept varying degrees of autonomy for the minority in question.

Calls for any kind of unification with bordering states, meanwhile, have met with even more straight-line denials. Talking about an independent Kosovo is one thing, but calls for Greater Albania are still very clearly beyond the pale.

(I'm leaving aside the Iron Curtain comparison, since, outside the Soviet Union anyway, it never suspended national borders.)

In that sense I gather that the occupiers as well as the international community at large will resist any form of territorial subdivision within Iraq, too, at least until religious/ethnic civil war really engulfs the country (not just targeted bombings and assassinations, but neighbour-against-neighbour slaughter). And even then it will probably push for some kind of far-reaching division into autonomous, constituent parts of a nominally, at least, still unified Iraq. Annexation by neighbouring states will only happen if neither the US nor the UN feels it has any kind of grip on the country whatsoever, and have pulled their hands off it altogether. By then we would have entered a different era.

Joe Nation wrote:
So far there is nothing about dividing Iraq in the various media, except for this thread, and I take that as a good sign.

Well, indeed - for all the talk of the relative state of anarchy reigning Iraq now - a true ethnic/religious civil war leading up to new borders - with all the ethnic cleansing that entails - would be a wholly different story still, that would make the current situation look merely like an introductory chapter. For the ethnic/religious map of Iraq is at least as muddled a patchwork of enclaves and mixed cities as that of Bosnia-Herzegovina was.

Just consider this map (click the thumbnail) - enough to make your heart sink...

http://images5.pictiger.com/thumbs/ae/ab9716a15df54ed586a7e1672f971eae.th.gif
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