Quote:Leading American scholars and practitioners of Islam said yesterday that Osama bin Laden had twisted and debased Muslim theology in a videotaped statement in which he called on "every Muslim" to "rush to make his religion victorious" by emulating those who attacked the United States on Sept. 11.
Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic studies and Muslim-Christian relations at Hartford Seminary in Hartford, said there was no basis in Islamic law or sacred text for Mr. bin Laden's remarks.
"The basic theological distortion is that any means are permitted to achieve the end of protesting against perceived oppression," said Dr. Mattson, a practicing Muslim.
"Islamic law is very clear: terrorism is not permitted,
Quote:But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?
We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''
Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said.
Q Why would anyone do what the hijackers did?
A Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people.
They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that.
Q Because?
A You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country.
In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.''
The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.
Lots more here, another good collection:
http://www.cair-net.org/html/911statements.html
OK-- let's start with that. I am going out for a couple of hours, and I don't know if I can find the Koranic passages that prove their statements incorrect before I go, but I'll give it a try.
I'll definitely return here when I get back.
The fact that people say this doesn't mean they are correct, as I'm sure you know.
One more, because it has more verses rather than modern interpretations:
Quote:The point we wish to emphasize in this article is the Islamic perspective on terror attacks and the killing of the innocent. All forms of terrorist attack are roundly condemned in Islam. According to the Qur'an, it is a great sin to kill an innocent person, and anyone who does so will suffer great torment in the Hereafter:
This verse equals the killing of one innocent to slaughtering all of humanity! Another verse expresses the importance that the faithful attach to life:
Those who do not appeal to any other deity besides God [alone]; nor kill any soul whom God has forbidden [them to] except with the right to do so; nor fornicate. Anyone who does so will incur a penalty. (Qur'an, 25:68)
In yet another verse, God issues the following commandment:
Any Muslim who believes in God with a sincere heart, who scrupulously abides by His verses and fears suffering in the Hereafter, will avoid harming even one other person. He knows that the Lord of Infinite Justice will suitably reward him for all his deeds. In one of the hadiths, our Prophet (may God bless him and grant him peace) listed the kinds of people who are not pleasing to God:
"Those who act cruelly and unjustly in the sacred lands, those who yearn for the ways of the ignorant, and those who wrongly shed human blood." (Sahih Bukhari Hadith)
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/againstterror.htm
Of course, the rub is when the killing is "just", and yeah, that's not something I like about Islam in general. There seems to be too much latitude for "just" killing, even if that is taken more literally by some and less literally by others.
Just to clarify, this is what is being discussed now:
Lash wrote:Can you imagine how it might change your life or your child's to know that the ultimate paradise is 77 virgins, and to get it, you have to die violently in a war against infidels?
What I am arguing is not that Muslims CAN attain paradise if they die violently in a war (I think they can, if the cause is deemed "just"), but whether that is the only way to get it. ("To get it, you have to...")
(See my last three posts...)
So, does that mean you refuse to read anything that conflicts with what you have posted?
No, it means I refuse to let things go off on yet another tangent before this one has been resolved. :-)
(I read it, and it's interesting, but it doesn't have much to do with your assertion that the only way to achieve Paradise is through violent means. Whatever point it does make I already made -- "Of course, the rub is when the killing is "just", and yeah, that's not something I like about Islam in general. There seems to be too much latitude for "just" killing, even if that is taken more literally by some and less literally by others.")
From the ISIS site
"Despite appearances, the fact remains thousands have left Islam behind along with other childish beliefs from Father Christmas to the Tooth Fairy. A few courageous souls have not only resisted the "irresistible" but braving family and friends, social ostracism, mob violence, and state assassinations and executions, have also come out of the closet, and have made their unbelief a matter of public record: Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasrin, Anwar Shaikh, Ali Sina, Mahmoud, Syed Mirza Ali, Mohsen, to name some of them."
As gathered and commented on by Anwar Shaihk:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 260:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 261:
Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you sh ould join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.
And from Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4339
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.
The following is very disturbing. I dare to say any man who read it and is not taken aback with disgust has a long way to go to become a human.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348
"Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood".
I felt the above story was a manifest injustice. Muhammad condoned a man killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that she insulted him!?
Forgiving someone for killing another human being just because he said she insulted Muhammad is unacceptable. What if that man was lying to escape punishment? What dose this story say about Muhammad's sense of Justice? Imagine how many innocent women, were killed by their husbands during these 1400 years who escaped punishment accusing their murdered wives of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith has made them get away with it.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4349
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4359
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment, which he deserves."
Q.58: 22
"You will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger
"
Q.3: 118-120
"O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worseQ.5: 51
"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya' to one another
"
Q.9: 29
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Q.9: 113
"It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah's forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in state of disbelief)."
Words from a former Muslim, Anwar Shaihk:
Quarn and Ahadith are full of outrageous verses like these that to me are clear proof that Muhammad was not a prophet, but a cult leader. To force people to denounce their own family is what cults do. He was an impostor who lied so loudly and so forcefully that the ignorant people of his time believed in him. Then the following generations echoed this lies passing it to the next. Philosophers and writers were born in this atmosphere of lies and elaborated on it, embellished it, and made it credible. But when you go to the core of it, when you read Quran and study the Ahadith you see it is nothing but lie.
I know my words can be upsetting. But I urge you, to take control of your anger, read my other articles and muse on them.
As you see my rejection of Islam is not based on the bad deeds of Muslims but on the bad deeds of its author. All the cruelties and heinous acts of violence, perpetrated by Muslims throughout the centuries were inspired by Quran and Sunnah (the example of the prophet) That is why I condemn Islam for the bad things that Muslims do. I know any effort to humanize the Islamic community is a waste of time. The enemy is Islam and that is the target of my attacks. I do that despite having become the magnet of the hatred of all fanatical Muslims. There is no gain in this for me. The only reason I am so adamant against Islam is to liberate the world from the claws of this satanic cult and restore peace and prosperity, love and amity amongst the children of man.
--------
The site has life experiences of many people, who are former Muslims and believe Islam is more of a cult than a religion. They share what they were taught in madrasses, and what is written in the Hadiths and the Koran.
If you go to the site, click on autobiography for a very good read. He was driven to murder to stay in "Allah's" good graces, as he was taught.
Soz-- Isn't the "ultimate paradise" (as I referred to it) the 77 virgins? And the prerequisite, martyrdom through violence?
Not your run of the mill paradise.
Christians have a paradise too, but no 77 virgins...and no violent prereq.
I don't think there is any violent prerequisite for Paradise, ultimate or no.
If you find something authoritative stating otherwise, I'd like to see it.
Everything I've found so far is no, I'll keep looking.
More protests over the cartoons have been called for by hard liners in Pakistan.
Who knew that two of the most criticized cartoons were actually drawn by the Iman who spent months traveling to Islamic countries to publicize the original cartoons?
Here's more on Paradise:
Quote:Description of Paradise in the Qur'an:
Janna (Paradise, Heaven) is called by eight names in the Qur'an: Jannatu al-Khuld, Darul as-Salam, Darul al-Qarar, Jannatu al-`Adn, Jannatu al-Ma`wa, Jannatu an-Na`im, `Illiyin, and Jannatu al-Firdaus. Janna is the Arabic word for "garden." 1 They have been translated into English as: paradise, a garden on high, a home that will last, garden of eternity, garden of everlasting bliss, gardens of delight, home of peace, home of the righteous, etc. 2
The Prophet Muhammad is quoted as saying that everyone will see God on the Day of Resurrection, as easily as one can see the sun when there are no clouds. 3
There will be no sickness, pain, sadness or death there. The Prophet Muhammad said that there are things in Paradise "which no eye has seen no ear has heard and no human mind has thought of." 4
Descriptions of Paradise in the Qur'an:
- Sura (chapter) 2:82: "But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever)."
- 3:133: "Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous."
- 3:185: "Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception."
-18:107: "As to those who believe and work righteous deeds, they have, for their entertainment, the Gardens of Paradise."
- 39:73: "And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds: until behold, they arrive there; its gates will be opened; and its keepers will say: 'Peace be upon you! well have ye done! enter ye here, to dwell therein'."
-39:74: "They will say: 'Praise be to God, Who has truly fulfilled His Promise to us, and has given us (this) land in heritage: We can dwell in the Garden as we will: how excellent a reward for those who work (righteousness)!' "
-47:15: "(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord...."
- Sura 56:1-40 of the Qur'an deals in depth with the Day of Judgment and the rewards that await persons who have led a good life.
-56:15-21: "[They will sit] on gold-encrusted thrones of happiness, reclining upon them, facing one another in [love]. Immortal youths will wait upon them with goblets, and ewers, and cups filled with water from unsullied springs by which their minds will not be clouded and which will not make them drunk; and with fruit of any kind that they choose, and with flesh of any fowl that they may desire."
- 56:22-26: "And [accompanying them will be their] companions pure, most beautiful of eye, like unto pearls hidden in their shells. [This will be] a reward for what they did [during life]. No empty talk will they hear there, nor any call to sin, but only the tiding of inner soundness and peace."
- 56:27-33: "Now as for those who have attained to righteousness- what of those who have attained to righteousness? [They too will find themselves] admist fruit-laden lote-trees, and acacias flower-clad, and shade extended, and waters gushing, and fruit abounding, never-failing and never out of reach."
- 56:34-37: "And [with them will be their] spouses, raised high; for behold, We shall have brought them into being in a life renewed, having resurrected them as virgins, full of love, well matched to those who have attained to righteousness"
- Surah 55 discusses the presence of "húr." They have most commonly been considered to be Houris -- beautiful virgins:
- 55:70: "In them will be fair [Maidens], good, beautiful."
- 55:72: "Maidens restrained [as to their glances], in [goodly] pavilions."
- 55:74: "Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched."
Others have interpreted the "húr" to be "the fruits of the good deeds" that a person has performed while alive. They are unique to Paradise and not like anything experienced on Earth. 6
- Surah 44:51-55 and 52:17-20 state that the men in Paradise will enter marriage with the Houris.
Jinns are living entities that God created from "a smokeless flame of fire." 5 They are invisible to the human eye but marry, produce children, eat, drink, and die like all other creatures in the universe." 7,8
In his commentary on Surah 55:72, Ibn Kathir (d. 1373 CE) stated: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'." 9
I bolded all the stuff to do with virgins. It's somewhere between 55 and 72, looks like.
Note "the SMALLEST reward..." Pretty much the opposite of ultimate Paradise. That's what everyone gets, baseline.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_para.htm
Wait, dunno where I got 55 -- just from the verse I guess. 72 seems to be the only number of wives/ virgins/ maidens/ houris there.
By the way that's what comes before the eligibility requirements that I already posted, but will post again for context:
Quote:Who is eligible for entry into Paradise:
Entry to Paradise is limited to those who believe in God and his messengers, and who have led a good life on earth. In the Qur'an:
- Surah 2:25: "And give good news [O Muhammad] to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens [Paradise] in which rivers flow...."
- Surah 4:57: "But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever...."
-Surah 57:21: "Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers...."
Presumably Agnostics, Atheists, Polytheists, and followers of non-Abrahamic religions will be denied access to Paradise because of their lack of belief. So too will be people who have done a preponderance of evil deeds.
Really go to go now--but I'll leave this here, for the people who say jihad means "internal struggle"
p.4.427
Paradise has 8 doors. He who prayed will be called from the door of prayer. He who paid zakat will be called from the door of zakat. He who fought will be called from the door of jihad.
BBL.
Soz makes a good point, although I think it doesn't exactly paint a complete picture to simply say, "Not ALL muslims are like that." Of course they aren't. But there are enough of them out there to be a problem. A big problem.
I don't think the problem is the muslim religion itself. It's that these theocratic muslim societies have not progressed fast enough to keep up with the rest of the world. And I'm not talking about the terrorists here, I'm talking about the fundamentalists who live by this stupid religious law and enable this idiotic terrorist fringe to thrive. Sure, the terrorists get all the headlines, but without the high percentage, comparatively, of like-minded fundamentalist wackos in the mainstream public, terrorism would simply fade away.
These anti-modern worlders are f*cking it up for the rest of us, and need to go.
That's going to be harder than you think. I've heard many people say "kill all Islamic extremists now", but in so doing you only create more of them.
Also, how do you fold a closed society that treats its women so poorly into an open, modern western world?
