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Sun 19 Feb, 2006 08:50 am
Muslim Outrage
* Muslim outrage huh.-- OK ... let's do a little historical review.
Just some lowlights:
* Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to
escape
a burning building because their faces were exposed.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to
school in Indonesia. (A Christian school.)
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and
hotels in Egypt.
No Muslim outrage.
* A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan
Russia.
Muslims shoot children in the back.
No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back.
* Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children
in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London
subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons.
No Muslim outrage
* Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one
of
the 125+ shooting wars around the world.
No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their
shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed
Muslims are outraged.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses.
Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims,
no Muslim outrage.........but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb
in his turban and all hell breaks loose......Mohammed married a 6-year old...Real Prophet.
I receive the
T-Shirt Hell newsletter, and in it they display new designs keeping up with recent events. I couldn't help but laugh when I saw this one:
cjhsa
I appreciate the perspective. I'd forgotten about some of those events.
The point you are making can't be shrugged off anymore.
cjhsa and Lash have brought up an important point. Radical Muslims are prepetrating all manner of atrocities, with nary a peep from their co-religionists. A Danish newspaper run some gross cartoons, and all hell breaks loose. There is something very, very wrong here!
cjhsa and Lash have brought up an important point. Radical Muslims are prepetrating all manner of atrocities, with nary a peep from their co-religionists. A Danish newspaper runs some gross cartoons, and all hell breaks loose. There is something very, very wrong here!
There are peeps, though!
Lots of Muslim outrage!
Not looting and such, no, but isn't the whole point that there are the violent extremists and then the more reasonable, moderate Muslims? The reasonable, moderate ones decry the violence -- they don't get violent themselves to protest violence...! :-?
I don't quite get why this is so frequently ignored. The outrage (in the sense of "what those Muslims did was wrong and not in line with our religion and I am outraged, as a Muslim, that they did it") is there, it's reported, I see it, when this comes up I look for it and find more... if it's "not enough" or "there should be more" or something, I could get my mind around it I guess, but it's not "NO Muslim outrage", by a long shot.
Everyone knows it, but what can we do about it as a whole without violence breaking out? It's not like we can sit down at a table and say, "look, there's a problem..." - being rational is out of the question.
So, there's a BIG problem. But how the hell are we going to fix it?
soz-- At this point, I'm not so much looking for progressive Muslims (who must be blue in the face by now) to "decry" every explosion of disgusting Muslim violence... I'm now looking squarely at the WIDESPREAD, PERMEATING perpetration of the Muslim violence.
We used to hear, from apologists, that the violence was perpetrated by a vocal minority.
That doesn't sell with me anymore.
Why do you think it's a majority?
Speaking for myself, I am comfortable condemning the violent, rabble-rousing, extremist slice of Muslims who are doing verybad things and should be receive condemnation from all corners (outside and inside their religion) and, hopefully, stopped, in one way or another.
I'm not comfortable condemning Islam as a religion or Muslims as a whole, for many reasons. When I see something that smacks of that kind of generalization, I'll often step in and say "whoa there". That is not excusing the verybad stuff; it's recognizing that there are two different populations. I think the first (violent, extremist Muslims) is smaller than the second (reasonable, moderate Muslims), when we're talking global scale. That's hard to prove, though, in either direction. Even just identifying how many Muslims there are in the world is difficult, as I found out recently when I tried to do so.
Meanwhile, that's a new tangent -- the premise of what cjhsa wrote is that there was NO outrage. That is not true.
Soz- The leaders in the Muslim countries need to strongly and publicly condemn the acts of the extremists. I don't think that they would dare, though!
Which leaders did you have in mind, Phoenix?
While I was looking in general (hard without names), I came across this, very useful for these kinds of threads:
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
I do notice that the Muslim leaders (mostly political Muslim leaders) seem to couch their condemnation of the violence by leaning heavily on condemnation of the pictures first.
I do think there is reason to believe that the overwhelming number of adherents buy the dreck in the Koran, which excuses violence and murder for cartoons/pictures/disrespect of Mohammad.
It is in there. The religion lends itself heavily to violence, murder, assault and abuse of women and children.
It just does. No need to be angry at all Muslims. I'm sure there are plenty, who disagree with the overwhelming bunch, who condone and cheer the violence. I'm also pretty sure they're scared as **** to say so.
Here's Musharraf, the first Muslim leader I could think of, on extremism and terrorism:
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.258414974&par=0
WHY do you think the overwhelming number of adherents buy the dreck in the Koran?
There is plenty of dreck in the Bible, too, that is not bought by reasonable Christians.
The Muslim religion, as a whole, is overwhelmingly about peace.
This is something else I found:
http://www.muhajabah.com/reallysays.htm
Quote:Even in a declared war, certain rules must be followed:
The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) has given clear instructions about the behaviour of the Muslim army. He observed:
"Set out for Jihad in the name of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious."
(That's just an excerpt, much more there.)
On Islam and peace, fairly random finding:
Quote:MPF's Statement of Purpose
The Muslim Peace Fellowship (Ansar as-Salam) is a gathering of peace and justice-oriented Muslims of all backgrounds who are dedicated to making the beauty of Islam evident in the world.
We believe:
Personal example is the only convincing argument for the truth of any religion. Since the particular business of Muslims is to emulate the model of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), who was sent as "a mercy to the worlds," our main concern must be to learn and teach the integrity and kindness that were his chief characteristics. And since the Creator of the Universe asks us, at the beginning of every act, to call to mind His benevolence and compassion, we know that these qualities must be the primary hallmark of any full realization of Islam.
http://www.mpfweb.org/mpf_purpose.html
soz-- So we don't waste out time,...you do concede that there are many violent passages that say in no uncertain terms what a good Muslim is to do to Jews, wives under some circumstances, and anyone who insults Mohammad. We've had this exchange before.
And, once again, the dreck in the Bible was not stated by Christ--on whom Christianity was based. What Mohammad (the main spokesperson for Islam) says, is on par with Jesus's words, if you insist on the comparison.
Why is it that so many people are unable to view Islam by itself, without dragging in other religions? I'm not comparing the two. How about a look at Islam first--and then, if you please, bring in other religions.
That practice has always seemd like a dodge of the issue at hand.
Mohammad's own words bear analysis.
The apologists are still at. Where are all those rational and peace loving Moslems hiding they speak of? All I see are Moslem radicals killing, Imams preaching sermons egging them on and the Moslem masses standing on the sidelines either silent or cheering.
Lash, do you see that the "hiding" stuff (above) could get old for people who see the rational and peace loving Muslims (in person or their words) all the time?
I'm not enough of an authority on either the Koran or the Bible to address your question intelligently. What I know is that the dreck is in both books, and there are lots of rational adherents of both books. That's a fairly straightforward rational exercise.
I have looked at Islam by itself in a great deal of depth -- more than any other religion, probably, and I've studied lots of religions. I'm very impressed by it, in general. It's sad that there are people set on corrupting it -- and also sad that people are so willing to believe the worst, and thereby help the corrupters' cause.
Because that's my thing, here. (Convoluted analogy excised for being too convoluted). I think that half of what we need to do to help stop this is condemn the wrong-doers -- and the other half is not to alienate the truly rational and peace-loving Muslims. Whether they are more than half or less than half, do you think they exist at all, Lash?
Lash wrote:I do notice that the Muslim leaders (mostly political Muslim leaders) seem to couch their condemnation of the violence by leaning heavily on condemnation of the pictures first.
I do think there is reason to believe that the overwhelming number of adherents buy the dreck in the Koran, which excuses violence and murder for cartoons/pictures/disrespect of Mohammad.
It is in there. The religion lends itself heavily to violence, murder, assault and abuse of women and children.
It just does. No need to be angry at all Muslims. I'm sure there are plenty, who disagree with the overwhelming bunch, who condone and cheer the violence. I'm also pretty sure they're scared as **** to say so.
sozobe wrote:Whether they are more than half or less than half, do you think they exist at all, Lash?
I find it impossible to believe that you ask a question we've discussed the answer to on so many occasions.
sozobe wrote:Lash, do you see that the "hiding" stuff (above) could get old for people who see the rational and peace loving Muslims (in person or their words) all the time?
That defies explanation. There are beneficial snakes, as well, but we don't pretend none are poisonous on their behalf.
It's the Balancing Voices thing again. Why don't we simply confront reality, instead of worrying that doing so may give some people fuel for racism. Your mode (and the mode of most of the members) is patronizing. Can't you leave off extraneous distractions and discuss this issue on it's own merit?
How am I not confronting reality?
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