Religion/ Rational or Irrational?

Phoenix,

I am sorry. I assumed you were talking about the Christian vote and beliefs being imposed that way. I apologize if I misunderstood.

Happens every danged time I assume and don't ask.

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Fresco- Am I correct in saying that religionists and rationalists are coming from an entirely different frame of reference? From what you are saying I might conclude that the reason that there is difficulty in communications amongst the two groups is because we are really coming from a far different conceptual base?

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yitwail wrote:

Phoenix, in another thread i asked Setanta whether a belief in free will was a superstition. he didn't reply, although Doktor S opined that it was. in case Setanta & Doktor S aren't the same individuals, maybe Setanta would care to respond this time.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1761434&highlight=superstition+free#1761434

i think the question is relevant to this thread, because the idea of justice is commonly based on the notion of free will, but there is no iron-clad proof that human beings have free will.

I would like to jump in on this one. I believe that human beings have free will, but only to a certain extent. There are some constraints based on native intelligence, as well as social conditioning, and the milieu in which one is raised.

That is not to say that a person, born into a pernicious environment, cannot overcome his beginnings, and make a new start in life, by dint of will. Craven is a prime example of this phenomenon. What makes one person able to find the strength to free himself of a maladaptive social system, while others unable are to release themselves from the grip of their upbringing, is a matter that one could speculate ad infinitum.

I do think though, that in a relative homogeneous society, unlike the one that Fresco described, it is perfectly reasonable to promulgate laws that would apply to all its people.

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Phoenix,

You are correct up to a point.

The key issue is "consistency". At the lowest level a religionist cannot argue that he is being rational if he accepts the need for "evidence" at all. This is why fundamentalist are so ridiculous when they select and reject evidence to suit the claims of the bible. However at a another level, a "mystical religionist" might claim that that binary logic (proof and falsity) and "evidence" are irrelevent to his "ineffable deity". This is an attempt to maintain consistency of his overall "rationality".

The consistency test also operates in comparison of micro and macrosystems. As Dawkins points out, what is preached or advocated at one level has an opposite effect at another. Those who deny this inconsistency are being "irrational".

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fresco- I have to let those thoughts sink in, but you bring up a fascinating concept!

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Aidan wrote:
Do you think people who believe in a god are mentally ill- by default- based solely on that belief? Because that's what your question implies.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but I certainly don't correlate religiosity with mental illness, except at its extremes.

But you do correlate it with irrationality ( in the other thread to which you referred in this one) which by my dictionary is defined at least in part by "lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence ". Maybe I just associate irrationality with mental illness.

Coincidentally, I just watched "The Pianist" for the first time tonight. I couldn't help but think how people all over the world at any given time are persecuted for their beliefs or lack of them - whichever way the wind happens to be blowing.

I wonder why it is so impossible for us as human beings to just allow that people believe what they feel it necessary to believe to get them through their lives- and just leave it at that. Just because something might not seem rational to you - doesn't mean it's irrational in someone else's experience or reality.

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Amen aidan!

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aidan wrote:

Maybe I just associate irrationality with mental illness.

I can't help it if you are reading something more into what I wrote than I meant.

I think that people who are afraid to walk under ladders as having an irrational fear. That does not mean that they are mentally ill.

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You miss the point Aiden, that whereas the people here are willing to leave the religiously fanatical in peace, they are unwilling to leave the rest of us in peace. They hunt the homosexuals, they hunt the abortion doctors, they hunt those whom they label "secular humanists," they hunt those whom they label "evolutionists" . . .

Your complaint is lopsided and biased . . .

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But maybe a paint bucket that was hanging on the ladder fell on their head once, and so now they avoid walking under ladders for a very good reason - you or I have no way of knowing - so we can't say whether anything anyone does or believes is irrational.

Sure it may seem so to us, but they may have a different experience than we have had.

I know I have a reason for most things I do and believe that seems very logical and rational to me. I'm sure you do too. I'm just choosing to extend that same benefit of the doubt to everyone else in the world.

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yitwail wrote:

Phoenix, in another thread i asked Setanta whether a belief in free will was a superstition. he didn't reply, although Doktor S opined that it was. in case Setanta & Doktor S aren't the same individuals, maybe Setanta would care to respond this time.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1761434&highlight=superstition+free#1761434

i think the question is relevant to this thread, because the idea of justice is commonly based on the notion of free will, but there is no iron-clad proof that human beings have free will.

I was unaware of your question--but i can assure you that i have no intention of rising to the bait of a member who equates me with some other poster, noted for his puerile conceit, because of some obscure paranoia that member entertains. Do us both a favor, and forget i exist.

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Setanta wrote:

You miss the point Aiden, that whereas the people here are willing to leave the religiously fanatical in peace, they are unwilling to leave the rest of us in peace. They hunt the homosexuals, they hunt the abortion doctors, they hunt those whom they label "secular humanists," they hunt those whom they label "evolutionists" . . .

Your complaint is lopsided and biased . . .

Set - I find the behavior you describe appalling. I don't believe it has anything to do with believing in a god - whether it be Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc. I think it has more to do with personal insecurities and fear of differences.

And what's my complaint that you think is lopsided and biased? I don't have a complaint. I'm sadly convinced that the whole sad thing is just human nature.

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aidan wrote:

I wonder why it is so impossible for us as human beings to just allow that people believe what they feel it necessary to believe to get them through their lives- and just leave it at that. Just because something might not seem rational to you - doesn't mean it's irrational in someone else's experience or reality.

This is what i see as your lop-sided and biased complaint. The origin of this thread, and several others at this time at this site is in the influx of intolerant thesists. The United States is in the grip of a religiously induced hysteria, which i know is not your problem, but it certainly is our problem.

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Setanta wrote:

aidan wrote:
I wonder why it is so impossible for us as human beings to just allow that people believe what they feel it necessary to believe to get them through their lives- and just leave it at that. Just because something might not seem rational to you - doesn't mean it's irrational in someone else's experience or reality.

This is what i see as your lop-sided and biased complaint. The origin of this thread, and several others at this time at this site is in the influx of intolerant thesists. The United States is in the grip of a religiously induced hysteria, which i know is not your problem, but it certainly is our problem.

Are there any theists you don't consider intolerant, Setanta? Can you prove the US is in the grip of a religiously induced hysteria?

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Dog bless thee, Silly Sister . . .

May the Great Celestial Leg Humper life His Mighty Leg and shower you with enlightenment . . .

Dog bless thee . . .

Ahem . . .

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Thought as much.

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Dog is hilariously amused to see the use of the verb "to think" on thy part, Wayward Sister . . .

Dog bless thee . . .

Ho Hum . . .

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aidan wrote:

Coincidentally, I just watched "The Pianist" for the first time tonight. I couldn't help but think how people all over the world at any given time are persecuted for their beliefs or lack of them - whichever way the wind happens to be blowing.

Religious beliefs being labeled 'irrational' by people in no place to do anything about it hardly constitutes 'being persecuted'. Perhaps we should harken back to Roman times, or even to WWII to get a good look at what true religious persecution is.

Quote:

I wonder why it is so impossible for us as human beings to just allow that people believe what they feel it necessary to believe to get them through their lives- and just leave it at that. Just because something might not seem rational to you - doesn't mean it's irrational in someone else's experience or reality.

You're free to live your life however you wish. This doesn't mean that some of the beliefs you may hold can't be defined as irrational. I do irrational things all the time, like flip off the guy that cuts me off even though he can't see/hear me.

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Setanta wrote:

aidan wrote:
I wonder why it is so impossible for us as human beings to just allow that people believe what they feel it necessary to believe to get them through their lives- and just leave it at that. Just because something might not seem rational to you - doesn't mean it's irrational in someone else's experience or reality.

This is what i see as your lop-sided and biased complaint. The origin of this thread, and several others at this time at this site is in the influx of intolerant thesists. The United States is in the grip of a religiously induced hysteria, which i know is not your problem, but it certainly is our problem.

I don't know why you would assume it's not a problem to me as well. Although I don't live in the US at this moment, I'm still a citizen, my entire family and most of my friends live there, and I will almost certainly return there to live at some point. I'm as sickened by the bigotry and intolerance as any other American - believe me. It goes absolutely against everything I am or believe in. It's one of the major reasons I was willing to bring my children to another country in which to live.

All I'm saying is that a belief in a god does not automatically translate into irrational thought and behavior or bigotry and intolerance. George Bush (and believers of his ilk) were assholes before they ever got saved - they're the kind of Christians they are exactly because they were assholes who always believed in controlling and judging others, etc. - now they just believe that their god sanctions their bigotry and bullshit.

But just because some believers paint all non-believers with the same brush, it's dangerous and unproductive to react in kind. Those who are sane and rational should refuse to do it. It just spreads hate, paranoia and dissension. There's enough of that already.

A belief in or reverence for something outside of oneself can be a positive force in a person's life. Of course, I believe that each person is free to determine what exactly it is they need in his or her own life, and act accordingly. If they don't require a belief, that's their business, and should be respected as much as if they do. That's it.

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I'm not sure what is so pejorative about calling faith irrational. It seems pretty axiomatic to me. I don't think that the fact that it is irrational is necessarily bad -- I think that a life lived strictly rationally is likely to be fairly dry. Faith adds a little something.

But faith is fundamentally irrational. Rationality is pretty much the antonym.

Why is that bad?

If I knew more about the Bible I'd grasp some of the phrases that are swimming around the edges of my consciousness about the IMPORTANCE of (irrational) faith -- to not look for proof, just believe, etc.

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Religion/ Rational or Irrational?

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