Religion/ Rational or Irrational?

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On another thread, I got into a discussion with yitwail. He asked me whether I considered religion itself irrational. I found that to be a very thought provoking question, difficult to answer.

One thing that occurred to me is that no one is wholly rational, all of the time. Is religion the cause, or the effect of that irrationality? Can one be religious, and still lead a rational life?

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"One thing that occurred to me is that noone is wholly rational all of the time. Is religion the cause, or the effect of that irrationality?

If one is non-religious and irrational, I think it can safely be assumed that religion is neither the cause or the effect of that particular irrationality.

"Can one be religious and still lead a rational life?"
That's just insulting - and I'm not even what most people would consider to be a particularly or typically religious person.

I've known rational and irrational people who are religious and rational and irrational people who are not religious. Believing in something, whether it is in God or in Science, in fact or in concepts that noone but you can understand, doesn't correlate to or preclude sanity - that's usually attibutable to the lack or presence of mental illness.

Do you think people who believe in a god are mentally ill- by default- based solely on that belief? Because that's what your question implies.

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Aidan wrote:

Do you think people who believe in a god are mentally ill- by default- based solely on that belief? Because that's what your question implies.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but I certainly don't correlate religiosity with mental illness, except at its extremes.

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Who gets to decide what is or what is not rational?

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Very interesting issue Phoenix. The one year I taught at Uni I shared an office with a fellow contract instructor who was a Jesuit Priest. We often discussed this very question in quite a friendly manner (meself being an atheist) his explanation was that "rationality" had nothing to do with religious faith ergo religion could be neither rational nor irrational as is other human "emotions" such as love or compassion.

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btw Phoenix I really hope this thread provokes some reasoned discourse and I intend to follow along.

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dys, do you think Pascal's wager gives a rational basis for religious belief?

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yitwail wrote:

dys, do you think Pascal's wager gives a rational basis for religious belief?

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aidan wrote:

"Can one be religious and still lead a rational life?"
That's just insulting - and I'm not even what most people would consider to be a particularly or typically religious person.

It doesn't have to be insulting, and it's not entirely inaccurate. A portion of the definition of rational: 'Consistent with or based on reason; logical'

Religion is most decidedly not based upon reason or logic, but faith.

Phoenix, to this

Quote:

Can one be religious, and still lead a rational life?

I would submit that yes, it's completely possible for a religious person to lead a rational life.

Even if one is irrational on a particular subject, no matter how all-encompassing that subject may be in one's life, one is still afforded the opportunity to make logical and rational decisions about other situations and items.

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[to dys] but it appeals to self-interest. isn't self-interest a sign of rationality? (btw, i'm being something of a devil's advocate, since i don't buy P's Wager myself.)

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For those who are not familiar with this:

Quote:

Pascal's wager
n.
An argument according to which belief in God is rational whether or not God exists, since falsely believing that God exists leads to no harm whereas falsely believing that God does not exist may lead to eternal damnation.

This makes not sense to me at all. In other words, the person who wrote this was "hedging his bets". I think that the statement "since falsely believing that God exists leads to no harm", is totally irrational, given the history of religion an the havoc it has caused on this planet over the centuries.

In addition, there is absolutely no reason to even consider the possibility of eternal damnation, since one needs to believe in a God that judges each person in order to accept that idea. Therefore, I cannot accept the entire premise.

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how does "faith" fit in with rational or not?

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Questioner wrote:

Phoenix, to this Quote:
Can one be religious, and still lead a rational life?
I would submit that yes, it's completely possible for a religious person to lead a rational life.

Even if one is irrational on a particular subject, no matter how all-encompassing that subject may be in one's life, one is still afforded the opportunity to make logical and rational decisions about other situations and items.

I agree. I think that many people compartmentalize their lives. I think that if one is able to lead a rational life has to do with the extent that one is ruled by irrationalities.

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husker wrote:

how does "faith" fit in with rational or not?

Faith is what you have in the absence of logic or reason (ie: proof).

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if "faith" = (from my dictionary) "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
Then no, it cannot be rational.

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phoenix, i think the definition by itself doesn't do the argument justice. it's strengthened by acknowledging that some harm may accompany a belief in a non-existent God, but infinite harm will follow unbelief if God does exist.

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When one subscribes to a concept through faith, it is by definition, irrational.

Quote:

ra·tion·al (răsh'ə-nəl)
adj.
Having or exercising the ability to reason.
Of sound mind; sane.
Consistent with or based on reason;logical: rational behavior.
Mathematics. Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.

Quote:

faith (fāth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

So if one has faith, which is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, the belief is not rational, which is "Consistent with or based on reason;logical"

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yitwail wrote:

phoenix, i think the definition by itself doesn't do the argument justice. it's strengthened by acknowledging that some harm may accompany a belief in a non-existent God, but infinite harm will follow unbelief if God does exist.

His premise is sound, but isn't necessarily plausible nor even desired by those that don't wish to embrace it whole-heartedly but are doing so merely to cover all the bases. There is a great deal of restraint and effort involved in being what I would term a 'successful Christian', and as such the lifestyle can be fairly limiting.

Ergo, subscribing to PW would in effect limit you to the quality/type of life you may wish to otherwise enjoy.

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can you explain to a poor foreigner what the PW is?

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dagmaraka wrote:

can you explain to a poor foreigner what the PW is?

PW == Pascal's Wager. Sorry.

Quote:

Pascal's wager
n.
An argument according to which belief in God is rational whether or not God exists, since falsely believing that God exists leads to no harm whereas falsely believing that God does not exist may lead to eternal damnation.

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Religion/ Rational or Irrational?

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