The esetoric and literals of the bible

Dys is correct that I hail from nowhere near Wolf Hole Az. which is considered damn near yankee country to us in Mowry. Manicured bluegrass grass lawn? Whatever you're smokin, I want some.

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In another thread which I do not want to derail, Momma Angel wrote:

I can understand your thinking on the preordained idea. But, if God does not interfere with your decisions, you don't consider that free will? If God actually made the decisions for us, I would agree with you.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1792534#1792534

MA,
When as with the male Midianite children in Numbers 31, God does a preemptive strike, do you consider that they had free will?

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Mesquite,

I was wondering if you were ever going to address that information I gave you about the Midianites.

Like I said, Mesquite, God knew what those people would become. He knew the decisions they would make. Again, you are discounting the fact that Christ became our intercessory and things are different. Nice try though.

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MA, the info in the website you provided was a large amount of unsubstantiated presumption in an attempt to partially excuse an inexcusable act IMO. You said that you learned something, but did not say what you learned. If you would like to share, I will address the points that you think are new information.

Christ as an intercessory to excuse OT atrocity is what you always seem to fall back on when all else fails. How does Christ intercede between God and the sinner when Christ and God are one? (trinity)

Your reply did not address the issue of freewill in light of the preemptive strike. How did the slaughtered children get to exercise their free will? Look again at your reply to hingehead that I quoted above.

Momma Angel wrote:

I can understand your thinking on the preordained idea. But, if God does not interfere with your decisions, you don't consider that free will? If God actually made the decisions for us, I would agree with you.

How can it not be that ending their lives is not making their decision for them, or at the very least interfering?

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Mesquite,

I think it's just best that you and I agree to disagree. It seems that absolutely nothing I give you to explain anything is even slightly satisfactory for you. That is fine. No harm done.

And as far as that bolded statement goes, did I not say IF? I did not say that was the way it was, I said IF that was the case.

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MA, it is not that what you give me is unsatisfactory to ME. It simply does not hold up to scrutiny.

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It does not hold up to your scrutiny. It does; however, hold up to the scrutiny of others. So, thus, we agree to disagree.

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Does anybody besides MA here want to assert that the executed male children of the Midianites as described in Numbers 31 got to exercise their freewill?

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mesquite wrote:

Does anybody besides MA here want to assert that the executed male children of the Midianites as described in Numbers 31 got to exercise their freewill?

Mesquite,

You are putting words in my mouth. I don't believe I made the statement that they got to exercise their free will. Play nice, would you? :wink:

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MA,
What is not fair? You in fact did NOT use the word exercise, but IMO it was inferred in your response. Why else would you have interjected your opinion into my response to thunder?

mesquite wrote:

thunder_runner32 wrote:
Quote:
What friggin sin did the male babies of the midianites commit?

Again, not what they have done is judged....how they will grow up and become is judged.

So much for free will. You have heard of free will haven't you?

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1781529#1781529

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

They had free will. But God knows everything. He knows if you will use your free will to good or not. You (not literally) don't know what you will do ten years from now. God does. You always have the choice to choose. He may know what choice you are going to make, but that does not mean he will take that choice away from you. But it is still YOUR choice.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1781558#1781558

I have this mental picture of a toddler being put to the sword because of what according to you God knew would occur. I cannot grasp how freewill of the toddler comes into play if the chance to exercise it was not given. I ask you then what is the meaning of free will in your world if preemption by God does not negate it?

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MA,

This post from another thread would seem helpful here.

revel wrote:

I agree with hephzibah, God gave us free will, so much so that what we do is not preordained beforehand. Proof of that is in the bible where God said that some of the things people did never entered into his mind.

Quote:
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire [for] burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake [it], neither came [it] into my mind:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1793485#1793485

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Mesquite,

Let me do some research into this and I wil get back to you.

Am working on it, Mesquite. Will have your answer shortly.

Jer 19:4-6 ~ "Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), 6 therefore behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

What He was saying was it didn't come into His mind for them to be doing the things they were doing... in other words... THAT IS NOT WHAT GOD had in mind for them to be doing.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer19:4-6;&version=50;

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If that floats your boat, but isn't it interesting how the same words can take an entirely different meaning to different people depending upon what they are expecting or wanting.

For more translations of Jer 19:5

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/versions/1137479561-412.html#5

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Like I said, you have yet to accept anything I have given you in this regard.

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MA,
I neither accepted nor rejected that particular verse. I merely pointed out the fact that at least two people (you and revel) get a completely different meaning from the same verse.

Next you will be telling me that there is no place in the Bible where it crossed God's mind to demand the sacrifice of a son. :wink:

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mesquite wrote:

MA,
I neither accepted nor rejected that particular verse. I merely pointed out the fact that at least two people (you and revel) get a completely different meaning from the same verse.

Next you will be telling me that there is no place in the Bible where it crossed God's mind to demand the sacrifice of a son. :wink:

Mesquite,

The point is, no matter what I have explained or given you in response to your questions, you have not accepted any of it. And that's fine, no one is asking you to. You just don't appear to be very open-minded at all about it, at least in my opinion you don't.

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I am not very open-minded. This from one whose most used line is " we will just have to agree to disagree".

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Mesquite,

I have on at least one occasion come to agreement with you. Why are you so irritated with me?

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Ma..
I would say it's because he seem's to be able to extract soooo much "Christian" stupidity from you, he's become addicted

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Lightfoot,

I am so you feel that way God Bless you.

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The esetoric and literals of the bible

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