The esetoric and literals of the bible

lightfoot wrote:

And momma say's.... "So what?"

No, Momma doesn't say so what? Momma says that's an awful lot of reading I'd have to do to get the complete stories. But, I imagine my answer would be much the same as I have given you time and time again.

He is God. I am not. I can't begin to understand everything about Him. His ways are not our ways. Like I said, I agree to disagree here.

Mesquite, you can try to discredit God any way you want to. You can call Him a murderer or whatever you want to. It does not make it so.

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Strawman. loving your neighbor is not the example I provided.

In the post I was replying to, you said that the morality of the bible was atrocious.....Midianites or no, the fact is that the bible's moral commandments are based on the ten commmandments and the golden rule. If God has carried out his judgement on this earth, on certain peoples living thousands of years ago has no implication on my basis for moral code.

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1. Extremely evil or cruel; monstrous: an atrocious crime.
2. Exceptionally bad; abominable: atrocious decor; atrocious behavior.

Yes, that is an appropriate adjective for the treatment of the Midianites as just one of many examples.

Oh, and I suppose you judged every one of their hearts and found them all innocent......right Rolling Eyes

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In case you do not realize it , you make my point by noting that society was very different back then. The Bible's moral directives are merely reflections of the civilizations that spawned them. I would be very interested in hearing your formula for how to pick and choose which biblical directive is applicable today.

That's why there is a new testament, because God knew that eventually the people would not obey the laws (ie Leviticus) and that a new moral standard would be needed; one not based on so many laws and rules.

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The following is a list of people murdered by God directly or through His command.

The entire population of the earth except for eight survivors (Genesis 7:23)
Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah except for one family (Genesis 19:24)
Every first born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)
All the hosts of the Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots (Exodus 14:27,28)
Amalek and his people (Exodus 17:11,16)
3,000 Israelites (Exodus 32:27)
250 Levite princes who had challenged the leadership of Moses (Numbers 16:1-40)
14,700 Jews in a plague who had rebelled against Moses following the killing of the princes (Numbers 16:41-49)
All the subjects of Og (Numbers 21:34, 35)
24,000 Israelites who lived with Moabite women (Numbers 25:4, 9)
All the males, kings, and non-virgin females of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7, 8)
The Ammonites (Deuteronomy 2:19-21)
The Horims (Deuteronomy 2:22)
All the citizens of Jericho, except for a prostitute and her family (Joshua 6)
12,000 citizens of Ai. Joshua hung the king on a tree. (Joshua 8:1-30)
All the people of Makkedah (Joshua 10:28)
All the people of Libnah (Joshua 10:29, 30)
All the people of Gezer (Joshua 10:33)
All the people of Lachish (Joshua 10:32)
All the people of Eglon (Joshua 10:34, 35)
All the people of Hebron (Joshua 10:36, 37)
All the inhabitants of 1 of the country of the hills, and of the south, and the vale, and of the springs and all their kings (Joshua 10:40)
All 31 kings and inhabitants of their countries, and south country, and the land of Goshen, and the valley, and the plain, and the mountain of Israel, and the valley of the same from Mt. Halak to Mt. Hermon (Joshua 11:12, 16, 17, 12:24)
10,000 Moabites (Judges 3:29)
10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites (Judges 1:4)
600 Phillistines (Judges 3:31)
All of Sisera (Judges 4:16)
120,000 Midianites (Judges 8:10)
25,100 Benjaminites (Judges 20:35)
50,070 people of Bethshemesh (I Samuel 6:19)
All the Amalekites (I Samuel 15:3, 7)
The armies and five kings of the Amorites (Amos 3:2)
The Moabites and 22,000 Syrians (II Samuel 8:2, 5, 6, 14)
40,000 Syrian horsemen (II Samuel 10:18)
100,000 Syrian footmen, followed by 27,000 who are all crushed by a wall (I Kings 20:28, 29, 30)
42 children eaten by a bear (II Kings 2:23, 24)
185,000 Assyrians killed by an angel (II Kings 19:35)
10,000 Edomites, followed by 10,000 more whose killers brought them to the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they were broken in pieces (II Chronicles 28)
120,000 Judeans (II Chronicles 28)
75,000 Persians (Esther 9:16)

Here is a list of all the people God created and judges...

EVERYONE

He is God...."the lord giveth and the lord taketh"

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mesquite wrote:

This statement by Dok,

"By putting all 'biblical sin' together on the same level you are in effect devaluing the atrocity of murder, rape, and all the other harmful behaviors."

had nothing to do with how a god may see it. The Bible is touted to be a guide for it's followers. The impact is on how the followers see it.

Wrong is wrong no matter how you put it. There are consequences for our actions. Granted the consequences vary in relation to the "crime" so to speak.

ie:

If I were to murder someone and get caught the consequence may be life in prison.

If I were to drive drunk and get caught my drivers licence may be suspended.

Both things are wrong no matter which way you look at it. Why? because it is against the law.

So then it becomes a matter not of wrongness (because it is established by the law that both things are wrong), but of the consequences to follow. They will vary because they will relate to the crime, however, that is no proof that one is more wrong than the other.

So explain to me then how the atrocity of murder is devalued by putting all "biblical sin" together.

Does the law distinguish between what is atrocious and what is not or do people?

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People make the law. It is all the same.

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All sin seperates us from God. Every commandment that is broken is a rebellion from God's word. All of the sins are bad, and they all seperate one from God. There is no unit of measure for how many or how bad the individual sins are; the fact is that one sin has the punishment of death.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

All sin seperates us from God. Every commandment that is broken is a rebellion from God's word. All of the sins are bad, and they all seperate one from God. There is no unit of measure for how many or how bad the individual sins are; the fact is that one sin has the punishment of death.

I think you would have probably felt right at home in the Taliban ruled Afghanistan.

What friggin sin did the male babies of the midianites commit?

Do you really believe the vomit that you emit, or are you just being a loudmouthed teenager looking for attention?

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Quote:

I think you would have probably felt right at home in the Taliban ruled Afghanistan.

I know what you're trying to pull and you are dead wrong. God is love, and his commandments are out of love. When we seperate ourselves from God (thus from love) we subject ourselves to the opposite (hate, sin, death)

The Taliban rule out of hate and disrespect for human life.

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What friggin sin did the male babies of the midianites commit?

Again, not what they have done is judged....how they will grow up and become is judged.

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Do you really believe the vomit that you emit, or are you just being a loudmouthed teenager looking for attention?

If I seriously wanted attention, why would I go on an anonymous forum and spend my time with people I probably won't meet in person?

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Mesquite,

I know we have very differing beliefs. I know that we have a different understanding of things. That is quite obvious. You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions. So am I and so is everyone else. Just because we don't agree does it mean we must try to wound each other?

We all have the same rights. Getting angry because of it does nothing to help anyone. It doesn't bring us any closer to an understanding of each other.

I don't like to see you getting more and more harsh. This is not the Mesquite I first met on these threads.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Quote:
I think you would have probably felt right at home in the Taliban ruled Afghanistan.

I know what you're trying to pull and you are dead wrong. God is love, and his commandments are out of love. When we seperate ourselves from God (thus from love) we subject ourselves to the opposite (hate, sin, death)

I am not trying to pull anything. I am just pointing out what is obvious and that is that the Taliban used essentially the same flawed reasoning. The commandments are out of love? Love of self maybe.

thunder_runner32 wrote:

The Taliban rule out of hate and disrespect for human life.

Which they got from their religious texts, that are not all that different from the Bible.

thunder_runner32 wrote:

Quote:
What friggin sin did the male babies of the midianites commit?

Again, not what they have done is judged....how they will grow up and become is judged.

So much for free will. You have heard of free will haven't you?

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Mesquite,

They had free will. But God knows everything. He knows if you will use your free will to good or not. You (not literally) don't know what you will do ten years from now. God does. You always have the choice to choose. He may know what choice you are going to make, but that does not mean he will take that choice away from you. But it is still YOUR choice.

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Have you got a reference for that MA? I realize that the deliberate slaying of thousands of children is hard to swallow and some and some really creative thought processes are needed to try and excuse it, but which is it, predestiny of free will? You can't have both.

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Mesquite,

It is quite obvious to me that you are not willing to discuss this without barbs.

We believe differently. I will just leave it at that.

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What is obvious is that your argument to justify the barbarity of the OT is bankrupt.

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It's free will, but God knows what you will choose. That doesn't change what you will choose.

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I am not trying to pull anything. I am just pointing out what is obvious and that is that the Taliban used essentially the same flawed reasoning. The commandments are out of love? Love of self maybe.

How could they be out of love of self? They are so obviously selfless.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

It's free will, but God knows what you will choose. That doesn't change what you will choose.

Quote:
I am not trying to pull anything. I am just pointing out what is obvious and that is that the Taliban used essentially the same flawed reasoning. The commandments are out of love? Love of self maybe.

How could they be out of love of self? They are so obviously selfless.

Six of the Ten Commandments are based on the worshipping of one God. These particular Commandments can be seen as an attempt to unify different peoples under one religion, to monopolise religion and unite them under one Leader and under one God.

What's the name of that King in the Bible who destroyed every other religion in Jerusalem except for the one? It was suggested that he did this to unite his people under his rule and it was then that the Old Testament was first written (the written version of the Old Testament being a political move on his part).

I do not fully subscribe to this belief, because I do not have all the evidence to properly judge whether this is true. Some of you may not believe it to be true regardless.

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Worshipping a God and having unity in people is neither selfish nor bad.

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Wolf_O'Donnell,

If, as I believe, there is one God and only one God, how can it be a monopoly? If there were more true gods and this was the case, I could see your point.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

It's free will, but God knows what you will choose. That doesn't change what you will choose.

If your god had the head of an infant lopped off for what the infant had potential to grow into, then I submit that that infant had NO free will.

thunder_runner32 wrote:

mesquite wrote:
I am not trying to pull anything. I am just pointing out what is obvious and that is that the Taliban used essentially the same flawed reasoning. The commandments are out of love? Love of self maybe.

How could they be out of love of self? They are so obviously selfless.

You find this selfless?

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

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mesquite is a rapscallion and lives nowhere near Wolf Hole Az. Rapscallion prolly lives in some god forsaken place like Scottsdale and has a manicured bluegrass lawn. Damned heathens!

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Perhaps this link will help, Mesquite. I found it quite interesting. Am curious as to what you think though. It lernt me sumtin! :wink:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html

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The esetoric and literals of the bible

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