What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

@okie,

okie wrote:

High Seas, I meant nothing personal, so my apologies. I am only pointing out the fact that Hitler was not friendly to personal property rights or business when it suited him.

Dude, the whole point is that guys like Hitler do whatever they want in order to acquire or keep power.

That's the problem with this whole thread. You are trying to show that Hitler was motivated by Leftist interests, or put forth Leftist ideas or something. But that's bullshit; all he was interested in was gaining power, and he only put forward whatever programs he thought would most effectively do that. This is why so many of his actions seem ideologically inconsistent; they were, if you try and fit him into a sane, left-right model.

Cycloptichorn

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@High Seas,

Helen,, you're not being really fair to Okie, He has some pathological needs that can only be meet by naming everyone he doesn't like as a liberal/socialist/statist. Facts don't discourage him a whit.

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@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

At any one time at least half the East Prussian officer corps thought Hitler was stark, raving, mad, and many of them were actively involved in efforts to assassinate him.

The other half were members of the 'Grenzschutz Ost' in the "Deutschvölkischer Schutz- und Trutzbund " .... and supported Hitler in 1920/3 (as did their comrades from the "Brigade Erhardt").

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@Walter Hinteler,

Nowhere near half if any support for persecution of jewish officers is implied, as many of those had been decorated by the Kaiser personally in the field of battle at Tannenberg in 1917. Possibly as many as half if only the ultra-nationalists, anti-Weimar-republic, extreme right wing views are taken in consideration. At any rate the Nazis never had much success in getting the officer corps to join that party.

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@dyslexia,

Dys - demonstrable facts do discourage Okie, as they do most posters here. See only in the last couple of pages how frequently he posted corrections / amplifications / retractions / even a couple of apologies for errors. OK, glad to see this outbreak of civility around here (joint credit to Rockhead and Cicerone for tepee and peace pipe), hope y'all manage to keep it Smile

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@High Seas,

okie's put me on Ignore, so what I post will be of no import to okie.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You are trying to show that Hitler was motivated by Leftist interests, or put forth Leftist ideas or something. Cycloptichorn

He was and he did. Hating capitalism is completely a leftist idea. Thats why he also hated Jews. He associated the two of them together, Jews and the greed of capitalism. This is so basic and so true that it leaves me incredulous that not all people even slightly familiar with Hitler have not figured this out yet. And this is but one of many similarities, but economic views are a pretty large component of political philosophy, I think one of the main cogs of the system.

Facts are stubborn things.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

He was and he did. Hating capitalism is completely a leftist idea. Thats why he also hated Jews. He associated the two of them together, Jews and the greed of capitalism. This is so basic and so true that it leaves me incredulous that not all people even slightly familiar with Hitler have not figured this out yet. And this is but one of many similarities, but economic views are a pretty large component of political philosophy, I think one of the main cogs of the system.

Facts are stubborn things.

You seem to be stubborn.

The "basic truth" is that Hitler was against "Jewish Capitalism". And that, okie, is so easily to find in ONLINE original sources.

I wonder why you use the same arguments that are used by neo-nazis (here) ...

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@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

Possibly as many as half if only the ultra-nationalists, anti-Weimar-republic, extreme right wing views are taken in consideration. At any rate the Nazis never had much success in getting the officer corps to join that party.

As said earlier, I've contributed a bit to an encyclopaedia related to that topic. When I've looked at the various "SS-Personalakten", "RuSHA-Akten", and "NSDAP-Mitgliedskarten" at the Bundesarchiv ... .

But generally I agree with your statement, though.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie's put me on Ignore, so what I post will be of no import to okie.

It looks like most posters on this thread are on okie's ignore list.

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Since okie doesn't read my post, this is just the rhetorical question again: how can it be explained that everyone was so stupid not to see that the NSDAP was Socialist? For instance, in 1923, the Prussian interior minister remarked about the situation in the Ruhr district that Prussia wasn't in the same danger as some other states since "the extreme right, the NSDAP and its followers as well as allied organsisation" were forbidden as well as the extreme left (here naming the "Proletarian Groups of Hundreds"). (Source: Carl Severin, 1923 and 1952).

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@okie,

okie wrote:

He was and he did. Hating capitalism is completely a leftist idea.

From the Murphy translation of Mein Kampf:

Quote:

When I heard Gottfried Feder's first lecture on 'The Abolition of the Interest-Servitude', I understood immediately that here was a truth of transcendental importance for the future of the German people. The absolute separation of stock-exchange capital from the economic life of the nation would make it possible to oppose the process of internationalization in German business without at the same time attacking capital as such, for to do this would jeopardize the foundations of our national independence.

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@old europe,

It would be interesting to compare that with Henri Ford's The International Jew , which was the source of much in Mein Kampf, like Hitler's (see: Ford) idea of a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world, and Hitler's hostile views towards communism and trade unions (see: Ford) ...

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@Walter Hinteler,

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You are trying to show that Hitler was motivated by Leftist interests, or put forth Leftist ideas or something. Cycloptichorn

He was and he did.

No, Okie, he wasn't and he didn't. He was after Power, he was motivated by Power interests, and put forth whatever ideas served to gain that power. That's the entire point.

Quote:

Hating capitalism is completely a leftist idea. Thats why he also hated Jews. He associated the two of them together, Jews and the greed of capitalism.

Hitler hated Jews b/c he was a racist/bigot. He didn't hate capitalism, and decide that, because of that, he must hate Jews. This is really a little ridiculous.

Quote:

This is so basic and so true that it leaves me incredulous that not all people even slightly familiar with Hitler have not figured this out yet. And this is but one of many similarities, but economic views are a pretty large component of political philosophy, I think one of the main cogs of the system.

Facts are stubborn things.

So are Okies, it would seem, because you've managed to ignore every single piece of counter-veiling evidence and advice from everyone on this thread, and still stubbornly insist that you are right.

Trying to look at historical situations, and mold them to prove things about the present, is always a bad idea. In fact, we were specifically taught not to do this in my University history courses. You will come out with a bad answer every time.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Trying to look at historical situations, and mold them to prove things about the present, is always a bad idea. In fact, we were specifically taught not to do this in my University history courses.

Well, I've learnt such at school already.

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History only ever effectively serves as a guide to human nature. History can't be predictive because historical situations were always the product of what went before, and political, social and cultural situations which arise today will be a product of the events of the past, which weren't operative in the past.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

High Seas, I meant nothing personal, so my apologies. I am only pointing out the fact that Hitler was not friendly to personal property rights or business when it suited him, which I do believe most definitely relates to political philosophy. I agree he was crazy, and credit to your relatives for figuring that out.

Okie - thank you very much, but an apology to me was really not necessary; it's been clear to me for a while that what you say isn't necessarily wrong, it is simply expressed in terms which don't correspond to your underlying concept. Mathematically speaking there is no one-to-one correspondence between your variables and the symbols you use to represent them.

You're trained in the sciences (geology, I think) and so will grasp instantly my theory on why, if my previous statement is true, you're having so much trouble on this thread. You know that speculative theories bubble up in the sciences all the time, and that they can fail for one of 2 reasons: either the theory contains an internal contradiction or it is so vacuous as to admit for the inclusion of just about any dataset.

I can't tell which of those 2 apply in the case you've outlined here; perhaps you could give it some thought.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

High Seas wrote:
Possibly as many as half if only the ultra-nationalists, anti-Weimar-republic, extreme right wing views are taken in consideration. At any rate the Nazis never had much success in getting the officer corps to join that party.

As said earlier, I've contributed a bit to an encyclopaedia related to that topic. When I've looked at the various "SS-Personalakten", "RuSHA-Akten", and "NSDAP-Mitgliedskarten" at the Bundesarchiv ... .

But generally I agree with your statement, though.

Yes, I knew you're a distinguished scholar in that particular political period, so I'm glad we are agreed!

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@High Seas,

correction, typo, of course 1914 was meant

addendum: Tannenberg is an extremely interesting battle not only because of the overwhelming margin of the German victory but also because - though much credit was given to Hindenburg - it is one of very few battles ever won primarily by communications intercepts, with the Russians actually transmitting en clair.

PS communications units contained a disproportionate number of jewish officers as they tended to be better educated in foreign languages, whence their higher representation in the medals awarded after that battle - doubt that even the nazis contemplated persecuting any of the officers so decorated.

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What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

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