What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

Since okie doesn't read my post, this is just the rhetorical question again: how can it be explained that everyone was so stupid not to see that the NSDAP was Socialist? For instance, in 1923, the Prussian interior minister remarked about the situation in the Ruhr district that Prussia wasn't in the same danger as some other states since "the extreme right, the NSDAP and its followers as well as allied organsisation" were forbidden as well as the extreme left (here naming the "Proletarian Groups of Hundreds"). (Source: Carl Severin, 1923 and 1952).

Maybe I have missed it since this thread is getting very very long, but in all honesty I really do not remember anything posted about Hitler's actualy beliefs or policies that indicates he is conservative or right wing. Like a few bullet points or examples, with references? I have done this more than a few times.

Walter, do you think it is at all possible that what was considered left vs right in 1923 is not the same as what it is considered today, and also what some people may have even considered as right at that time might not have even been as right to them later if they were asked again? After all, we know the capitalists felt betrayed, did they not? Heck, even if the judgement of left vs right was the same as it is now, which it is not in my opinion, politicians can still run as a chameleon, they turn out to be a totally different animal than they advertised. Undoubtedly, you are more familiar with all the nuances of this group and that group in Germany, I won't dispute that, but what is not so nuanced is what Hitler actually said in Mein Kampf, what the Nazi Party 25 points said, and what Hitler actually did, how he governed, and I have yet to see much of anything from you in the way of how any of that supports the idea that he is a right wing conservative type of politician.

I have repeatedly posted many things, I've listed them, things that Hitler believed, promoted, and did after he gained power, as demonstrable facts as evidence of a left wing type of agenda, but it all runs off of you and others here like water off a ducks back. I believe that trumps everything you can post about whatever organization or person or group that supported Hitler or didn't support him or whatever, and they were of such and such belief, and therefore that makes Hitler such and such. Heck it is not uncommon at all for groups to support a politician for all kinds of reasons, and it is difficult to identify that politician's actual beliefs unless you actually identify what that politician actually said and did.
[...]
Maybe I have missed it since this thread is getting very very long, but in all honesty I really do not remember anything posted about Hitler's actualy beliefs or policies that indicates he is conservative or right wing. Like a few bullet points or examples, with references? I have done this more than a few times. I am kind of tired of hearing about this group or that group in Germany at some particular point, why not cut to the chase and talk about the bottom line?

georgeob1 wrote:

Are you in favor of legislating moral principles? How do you propose to deal with opposing views?

George, I was thinking about this whole "moral right" idea this morning and I think it all dawned on me what this all means, and the reason why this really is a huge point in terms of understanding political views. And I will post this on the dictator thread as well because I think it strikes right at the heart of how right vs left manifests themselves in politics and in individuals, not only now but in history, as it applied to various figures in history, such as Hitler, Stalin, etc.

Here is what I think is so important to realize about this. The left, or the liberals, to one extent or another believe that health care is a right. As you have pointed out, or asked of liberals, then what about food, housing, etc. The answer I think from some would be yes, those are also a right, if not guaranteed by the State, they should be because they are a moral right as being part of the State or community, or they should be made available, they are a moral right. The point that I want to make here about what is so important about this - is that if one believes that services and things are morally due everyone, I think this means that everything belongs to everyone, and individual persons property and work also either are or become communal property, they belong to everyone, as individuals are all members of the human race and anything they have or produce were given to them or they produced from stuff that belongs to everyone. Therefore, liberals view us all as a whole, a community or commune. This means they believe in socialism or even communism. This even ties into many different facets of political issues, such as environmentalism, views on it in terms of liberal and conservative, the earth belongs to everyone, the animals, everything belongs to the community. I could mention other issues that display the same principle, but I think this should amply illustrate the point I am making here.

Now, in contrast, and it is a huge contrast, the Judeo-Christian belief is one philosophy, perhaps not the only one that propagates what I am about to describe but certainly one of the most important in the history of the world, it brings in the concept and principle of the rights and responsibilites of the individual, not the group, to own property, to work and earn whatever he earns for himself. What he earns belongs to him, and his property belongs to him alone. This also means that stealing is now a huge crime, when one individual steals or takes from another what the other rightfully owns or has earned. So now apply this to health care, liberals view this as a right, so it does not bother them to take from others to give it to themselves or others. Under their belief, it is rightfully theirs, but under the Judeo-Christian philosophy, that is essentially stealing. Of course people can and do commonly give to others voluntarily, this is called charity, but when it is forcefully taken from them what they earned and own, it is essentially an act of theft.

Okay, here is where we are, America has traditionally been founded upon, and I think the vast majority of people still believe in the concept and right of people as individuals to own property and things, and when it is taken from them, it is considered stealing. However, as more and more liberalism, or philosophy of the commune, as more and more of that thinking creeps in, there is more and more pressure upon the "State" to take (it isn't called stealing) from those that rightfully earn and own assets and give it to those that do not have it, why, because it is morally and rightfully theirs too, because we are all members of the commune or community, or nation, whatever, now I think the "world" is creeping into that attitude more and more. Note Obama made a big point of the fact that he was a "citizen of the world."

All of what I have just described is really a religious belief at its foundation, whether it is in an established religion or merely the fact that the State is the arbitor of fairness because everything belongs to everyone, according to the ultra left. After all, what other vehicle can be used to institute this religious belief besides the State, so the State also becomes a religious belief in practice.

I am going to post this on the dictator thread as well, with a closing paragraph on Hitler and how this relates to him.

Okie...

when we were created as a nation, we were afraid of a king, and taxation without representation.

you want me to believe they were looking out for communism in the 1700's?

That explains to a large extent the cultural war we are now engaged in, ...

Undoubtedly, you are more familiar with all the nuances of this group and that group in Germany, I won't dispute that, but what is not so nuanced is what Hitler actually said in Mein Kampf, what the Nazi Party 25 points said, and what Hitler actually did, how he governed, and I have yet to see much of anything from you in the way of how any of that supports the idea that he is a right wing conservative type of politician.

I have repeatedly posted many things, I've listed them, things that Hitler believed, promoted, and did after he gained power, as demonstrable facts as evidence of a left wing type of agenda, but it all runs off of you and others here like water off a ducks back.

In the context of that time, I do believe there were individuals that clearly understood the key issue of individual rights vs that of the king and his interest to tax the individual for the good of the State and the whole. I believe the thinking and philosophy of these individuals played a big part in how history unfolded, how our declaration of independence was worded, how the constitution was put together, etc., and why we are what we are.

The Diggers called themselves "True Levellers". They were associated with the political Levellers but Lilburne and other spokesmen were at pains to deny the connection. The Digger agenda of the "levelling of all estates" " i.e. the abandonment of private property rights " was too radical a step for the Levellers, who were attempting to negotiate a political settlement within the existing social order. (emphasis added)