What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

Okay. Hitler was an extreme right-wing and the NSDAP's policy was extreme right-wing.

Actually, I now (as of today) can say that I've definitely seen and read more sources about it than you. (Only the last couple of days I've read through some dozen hundred of pages of party meeting minutes, protocols, statements, private letters etc )

Wonderful, I hope you learn alot.

Wonderful, I hope you learn alot.

Never mind the fact you have no evidence, Walter. If you could cite some evidence, go ahead.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay. Hitler was an extreme right-wing and the NSDAP's policy was extreme right-wing.

Never mind the fact you have no evidence, Walter. If you could cite some evidence, go ahead.

okie wrote:

Never mind the fact you have no evidence, Walter. If you could cite some evidence, go ahead.

Irony, thy name is "okie".

okie wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay. Hitler was an extreme right-wing and the NSDAP's policy was extreme right-wing.

Never mind the fact you have no evidence, Walter. If you could cite some evidence, go ahead.

What would be the point? You've been arguing that the fact that the NSDAP ran on an anti-Marxist platform and that the Nazis, as soon as they were in power, persecuted and killed Communists and Socialists was evidence that the NSDAP was a socialist party.

Using your reasoning, McCarthy was a bloody commie. You've started out with a conclusion, and no evidence whatsoever is going to make you re-evaluate your beliefs.

The point is you need to look at Hitler's beliefs and political philosophy, not who he opposed.

parados wrote:

You don't seem to understand the quote or the parts you left out of it okie..

Quote:

Replacement of universal and equal suffrage by an appropriate class or plural voting franchise; the simultaneous conversion to a parliamentary system that recognizes the personal accomplishments of the educated and the propertied in the realm of political work....

Obviously it wasn't to create a system where all were equal but rather it was to create a voting system where those with property and education ran the government.

I saw that, Parados, and I think we could debate the meaning of that until the cows come home, but notice it says "political work." It is the elite political class, and I could point out that members of the communist party have alot more sway in communist countries, not saying this is an indication of a communist document, but just merely pointing out that this particular statement does not at all indicate a right wing philosophy, I think it rather argues for a leftist leaning direction. It seeks to do away with the equal rights of individuals, and gives it to the political elite for the good of the state, not the individual, which is not a conservative idea at all. I think the key to the statement is it relates to the "realm of political work."

Okie - I just posted a link to Hitler's book "Mein Kampf" in English translation; please take a look, you'll probably agree with Walter and me, among others, the guy was no leftist.

I have tried to get Walter, oe, and others to actually cite evidence in Hitler's philosophy or in the Nazi Party 25 points that indicate a right wing philosophy, but so far they fail to do much of anything.

Quote:

I have tried to get Walter, oe, and others to actually cite evidence in Hitler's philosophy or in the Nazi Party 25 points that indicate a right wing philosophy, but so far they fail to do much of anything.

Not true. You have simply ignored most of the points that have been made.

You focus on the 25-point manifesto from 1920 and a couple of re-interpreted sentences from Mein Kampf, to the exclusion of virtually everything that the Nazis actually did once they were in power. There's no doubt that in the early days of the party, some members of the DAP envisioned the party to fight for some kind of 'nationalist version' of Marx's socialism.

Even if the party program reflects that, you never even examine how much of the program - which wasn't written by Hitler alone - was actually implemented after the Machtergreifung in 1933.

Add to that that you have ignored the fact that, as Hitler became more and more powerful within the party, the party elite openly derided the party program*.

You have ignored the fact that in 1928, Hitler personally clarified parts of the party program, effectively nixing the idea of expropriating individuals for the benefit of the community**. You have ignored the fact that, when confronted by the left wing of the party about this change to the party program, he declared that he wasn't "insane" and that he had absolutely no intention of destroying the economy by socializing the means of production***.

You have ignored the fact that in 1930, the left wing of the NSDAP, led by Otto Strasser, not only left the party, but published a letter in their newspapers titled Die Sozialisten verlassen die NSDAP (the socialists are leaving the NSDAP) which openly criticized Hitler for ignoring the party program, for being to close to industrialists, capitalists and the bourgeoisie and for ignoring the common people. You have ignored the increasing NSDAP propaganda and agitation against Marxism, and you have ignored Hitler's speeches where he promised to fight Marxism "ruthlessly with all, even the outermost extreme measures... until the complete destruction and extermination".****

The fact has been brought up that the NSDAP formed a coalition with parties on the right side of the spectrum, including the catholic Centre Party (Zentrum) and the right wing nationalist DNVP (Deutschnationale Volkspartei, the German National People's Party). You have ignored that as well.

In the night where the Reichstag burned down, the NSDAP immediately blamed the Communists, without even waiting for an investigation. The Reichstagsbrandverordnung was prefaced "[...] zur Abwehr kommunistischer staatsgefährdender Gewaltakte" ("... for the defense against communist seditious acts of violence"). If, as you claim, Hitler was truly a socialist, then you have failed to explained why the Nazis would blame somebody on their own side of the political spectrum rather than conservatives or nationalists.

I have posted a link to a paper that showed that, while the Nazis implemented extensive regulations and controls for the private sector, Germany saw a higher proportion of privatization proceeds compared to fiscal revenues than at any other point in its history. Your reaction was to claim that this supported the thesis that Hitler was a socialist. Socialism, according to Marx, is a phase in the transition from capitalism to communism - the collective ownership of the means of production -, where the people, via the state, expropriate the ruling class and nationalize the land and the means of production. If Hitler was a socialist, you have so far failed to explain why he did the exact opposite.

* Wie zynisch zumindest an der Spitze die Programmgrundsätze mißachtet wurden, erfuhr einer der jungen enthusiastischen Überläufer zur Partei im Gespräch mit Goebbels; auf die Bemerkung, daß Feders Brechung der Zinsknechtschaft doch ein Element des Sozialismus enthalte, bekam er zur Antwort, brechen müsse höchstens der, der diesen Unsinn anhöre. (Fest, Hitler, p. 393)

** On April 13, 1928, Adolf Hitler clarified section seventeen in the programme in order to stop political mischaracterizations:

"Gegenüber den verlogenen Auslegungen des Punktes 17 des Programms der NSDAP von seiten unserer Gegner ist folgende Feststellung notwendig: Da die NSDAP auf dem Boden des Privateigentums steht, ergibt sich von selbst, daß der Passus 'Unentgeltliche Enteignung' nur auf die Schaffung gesetzlicher Möglichkeiten Bezug hat, Boden, der auf unrechtmäßige Weise erworben wurde oder nicht nach den Gesichtspunkten des Volkswohls verwaltet wird, wenn nötig, zu enteignen. Dies richtet sich demgemäß in erster Linie gegen die jüdischen Grundspekulationsgesellschaften."

"Because of the mendacious interpretations on the part of our opponents of Point 17 of the programme of the NSDAP, the following explanation is necessary.: Since the NSDAP is fundamentally based on the principle of private property, it is obvious that the expression 'confiscation without compensation' refers merely to the creation of possible legal means of confiscating when necessary, land illegally acquired, or not administered in accordance with the national welfare. It is therefore directed in the first instance against the Jewish companies which speculate in land.

*** Als Strasser ihm nach bewegter Diskussion die Kardinalfrage stellte, ob im Falle einer Machtübernahme die Produktionsverhältnisse unverändert blieben, antwortete Hitler: "Aber selbstverständlich. Glauben Sie denn, ich bin wahnsinnig, die Wirtschaft zu zerstören? Nur wenn die Leute nicht im Interesse der Nation handeln würden, dann würde der Staat eingreifen. Dazu bedarf es aber keiner Enteignung und keines Mitbestimmungsrechtes." (Fest, Hitler, p. 392)

**** Hitler, der vorgab den Inhalt der Boxheimer Papiere nicht zu kennen, bekräftigte deren Absicht, als er am 26. Januar 1932 in einer Rede vor 300 rheinischen Industriellen, den "unerbittlichen Entschluß" unterstrich, "den Marxismus bis zur letzten Wurzel in Deutschland auszurotten"7. Bereits ein Jahr zuvor hatte er sich gegenüber Friedrich Fürst Wend zu Eulenburg-Herzefeld ähnlich geäußert, wie der Großgrundbesitzer unverzüglich für seinesgleichen vervielfältigte: "Den Kampf gegne den Marxismus fürhre ich rücksichtslos mit allen, auch den alleräußersten Mitteln... bis zur välligen Vernichtung und Ausrottung."8 (System der NS-Konzentrationslager: 1933-1939, Drobisch, Wieland, p. 14)

There may be a better one somewhere. Walter - can you confirm that the book can't be legally sold in Germany? But it's legal to read it on the internet? Not sure how that kind of restriction works, or is enforced.