What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

Quote:

Perhaps a pretty slick switcheroo there?

Socialism vs Marxian socialism? You think there is a large difference? Let's see how far you really want to go with this argument okie...


So.. let me see. Are you arguing that Marxian socialism is NOT far left?
If Marxian socialism IS far left then Mussolini would have been arguing that Fascism is far right, would he not?

If you think Fascism is socialism then you would be arguing that socialism occupies both the far left and the far right of the political scale. Are you sure you want to make that argument?

Actually, you may be buttressing my argument with what you are citing here. The jury is out until you provide full quote in context. I have never said Marxian socialism is not far left, in fact it is very far left.

He may have simply said that Fascism was the opposite end of socialism from Marxian socialism, which would make it a right wing brand of socialism as compared to Marxism being at the extreme left, which is pretty much exactly what Jonah Goldberg said, and I believe it is also accurate when you compare the policies of fascism. It makes total sense.

It really depends upon the context of Mussolini's quote, the scale he was using, if he was using a scale on which he was comparing forms of socialism, or if he was using a scale with everything included. I really don't see how it could be the latter, because it is obvious that the policies of fascism are to the left of the policies of the United States for example.

So until you can provide full context of quotes, I don't think you have established anything to your argument at all.

Il Fascismo è l'esatta negazione della dottrina che fu alla base del così chiamato Socialismo Scientifico o Marxista.

...funzionario e ufficiale di brigata della Repubblica Sociale Italiana costituita da Benito Mussolini nel nord Italia col sostegno dei nazisti dopo l'8 settembre 1943...

Nato nel 1914, funzionario e ufficiale di brigata della Repubblica Sociale Italiana costituita da Benito Mussolini nel nord Italia col sostegno dei nazisti dopo l'8 settembre 1943, nel dopoguerra Almirante partecipò alla fondazione dell'Msi, di cui fu deputato e segretario. Nel 1987 lasciò il posto proprio a Gianfranco Fini, già leader di An e attuale presidente della Camera.

Been Born in 1914, official and officer of brigade of the Italian Social Republic constituted by Benito Mussolini in the north Italy with the support of the Nazi after September 8 th 1943, in the postwar period Almirante participated in the foundation of the Msi, of which it was deputy and secretary. In 1987 he/she left the place proper to Gianfranco Fini, already leader of An and actual president of the Chamber.

Well, "sozial" and "sozialistisch" in German are as different or equal as are "sociale" and "socialismo" in Italian.

Is it anywhere close to accurate? I know it can really screw up Spanish, and it insists on translating 'bulb' (as in light bulb) to the German word for 'onion'.

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=collectivism&x=11&y=6
Main Entry: col•lec•tiv•ism
…
1 a : a politico-economic system characterized by collective control especially over production and distribution of goods and services in contrast to free enterprise <forces that have led to individualism have in the last fifty years been successfully opposed by the forces of collectivism -- M.R.Cohen> b : extreme control of the economic, political, and social life of its subjects by an authoritarian state (as under communism or fascism) c : a doctrine or system that makes the group or the state actively responsible for the social and economic welfare of its members
2 : a social theory or doctrine that emphasizes the importance of the collective (as the society or state) in contrast to the individual and that tends to analyze society in terms of collective behavior …

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=individualism&x=21&y=7
Main Entry: in•di•vid•u•al•ism
…
1 a (1) : the ethical doctrine or principle that the interests of the individual himself are or ought to be paramount in determination of conduct : ethical egoism; also : conduct guided by the principle (2) : the conception that all values, rights, and duties originate in individuals and that the community or social whole has no value or ethical significance not derived from its constituent individuals b (1) : the doctrine which holds that the chief end of society is the promotion of individual welfare and the chief end of moral law is the development of individual character; also : conduct or practice guided by such a doctrine (2) : a theory or policy having primary regard for individual rights and especially maintaining the political and economic independence of the individual or maintaining the independence of individual initiative, action, and interests (as in industrial organization or in government); also : conduct or practice guided by such a theory or policy -- compare COLLECTIVISM, PATERNALISM, SOCIALISM c : any vigorous and independent striving toward an individual goal or any markedly independent assertion of individual opinions especially without regard for others or in defiance of an institution or larger authority …

He may have simply said that Fascism was the opposite end of socialism from Marxian socialism, which would make it a right wing brand of socialism as compared to Marxism being at the extreme left, which is pretty much exactly what Jonah Goldberg said, and I believe it is also accurate when you compare the policies of fascism. It makes total sense.

It really depends upon the context of Mussolini's quote, the scale he was using, if he was using a scale on which he was comparing forms of socialism, or if he was using a scale with everything included. I really don't see how it could be the latter, because it is obvious that the policies of fascism are to the left of the policies of the United States for example.

So until you can provide full context of quotes, I don't think you have established anything to your argument at all.

The 'trouble' is that both Marx and Engels used the term "socialistic" and "communistic" synonymous during the first years.
They were only used generally different from the II. International onwards. (In Germany earlier, from the foundation of the Social-Democratic Party onwards, resp. even earlier from the foundation of the "German Workers Party onwards [1865].)

As ican points out, the actual practices of collectivism within the fascist idealogy I think clearly indicates it to be a leftist or socialistic brand of politics. Government nationalizing or controlling companies is a leftist philosophy

AGAINST THE MAINSTREAM: NAZI PRIVATIZATION IN 1930S GERMANY

Abstract:
The Great Depression spurred State ownership in Western capitalist countries. Germany was no exception; the last governments of the Weimar Republic took over firms in diverse sectors. Later, the Nazi regime transferred public ownership and public services to the private sector. In doing so, they went against the mainstream trends in the Western capitalist countries, none of which systematically reprivatized firms during the 1930s. Privatization in Nazi Germany was also unique in transferring to private hands the delivery of public services previously provided by government. The firms and the services transferred to private ownership belonged to diverse sectors. Privatization was part of an intentional policy with multiple objectives and was not ideologically driven. As in many recent privatizations, particularly within the European Union, strong financial restrictions were a central motivation. In addition, privatization was used as a political tool to enhance support for the government and for the Nazi Party.