What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

@dyslexia,

Yes, in this you're in agreement with the great Schroedinger, whose classic equation defines decoherence. Have a great day, see you later.

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@High Seas,

Schroedinger was a pussy entangled in a hairball.

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@Rockhead,

And you read that with your left hand, doncha, you disgusting commie fellow-traveler . . .

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@Setanta,

unless I'm driving.

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I've mentioned earlier that the founding of the DAP and NSDAP is well documented .... in archives.
While doing some (different but somehow related) research, I noticed that the materials from the 'Hauptarchiv' ("main archive") which have been transferred from the Berlin Document Center to various German archives, were copied on microfilms for the Hoover Institution as well.

So, all infos we've here in Germany can be seen in the USA, too, okie.
(The founder of the The Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund ["German Nationalist Protection and Defiance Federation"], the largest, most active, and most influential anti-semitic federation in Germany WW I, met Hitler in 1918, by the way, and they discussed his "If I were Kaiser ...")
And when you look at the minutes of the founding meeting of the NSDAP in 1920 .... well, but why should you, okie?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I've mentioned earlier that the founding of the DAP and NSDAP is well documented .... in archives.
While doing some (different but somehow related) research, I noticed that the materials from the 'Hauptarchiv' ("main archive") which have been transferred from the Berlin Document Center to various German archives, were copied on microfilms for the Hoover Institution as well.

So, all infos we've here in Germany can be seen in the USA, too, okie.
(The founder of the The Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund ["German Nationalist Protection and Defiance Federation"], the largest, most active, and most influential anti-semitic federation in Germany WW I, met Hitler in 1918, by the way, and they discussed his "If I were Kaiser ...")
And when you look at the minutes of the founding meeting of the NSDAP in 1920 .... well, but why should you, okie?

Sure sure, Walter, you are showing the way now, you are becoming very convincing. I am so convinced that I will quote just some of the stuff that proves Hitler was a right winger. Things like shutting down the presses, confiscating property, disallowing individual rights, doing things for the good of the "totality" or common good, closing private schools, criticizing "making money," etc., those are all obviously right wing ideas. I am so glad Walter is clarifying all of this for me. Come to think of it, Hugo Chavez might be a right winger, he is at least confiscating the presses thats not good for Venezuela.

On a more serious note, do not let the use of the word "socialist" muddy the waters here, as used in the website linked, as it obviously has a different meaning than we think of it today.

http://h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/class.html

"Replacement of universal and equal suffrage by an appropriate class or plural voting franchise.

Accordingly, everything that serves to undermine the state and social order, or is suspected of doing so, would be prohibited. To wit: assemblies, associations, newspapers, and periodicals [conforming to the above tendencies] would not be tolerated.

A radical workers' party that stands on the basis of the state, the nation, and the monarchy can be absorbed by our public life, can, perhaps, even be put to good use; it can, if need be, rouse the conscience against any inclination to an [exclusively] bourgeois policy.

At the same time, society must do all it can to win the masses back to the fatherland. Public interest corporations will publish the most inexpensive daily papers in order to provide the people with de-toxified reading material.

All private schools will be abolished.

The constitution will be abolished.

The nation is in itself eternal, eternal by virtue of its perpetuation, which takes precedence over individual personalities.

The dissemination of everything that masquerades as art but speculates in decadent inclinations in order to excite attention or "make" money, must be banned.

We must rethink the axiom: equal rights for all. It should be replaced by the principle: political rights are to be regulated according to the service the individual renders to the totality and according to his behavior toward it....

Although somewhat softened by National Liberal and Centrist objections, the second version of the Anti-Socialist Laws passed the Reichstag in October 1878."

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@okie,

okie wrote:

On a more serious note, do not let the use of the word "socialist" muddy the waters here, as used in the website linked, as it obviously has a different meaning than we think of it today.

Wrong. It was used in the 1880's exactly in the very same way as it was used in the 1920's or today. And it definitely is not obvious at all - but as said a couple of weeks ago: your German might be better than mine.

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What Okie means, of course, is that the word socialist is not defined as he wants it defined, and since the only argument for his tripe is based in definitions which establish his "thesis" at the outset, that becomes crucial.

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@Setanta,

On the other hand, I have to be quite thankful for okie's "ideas" here: thus, I looked a bit more in archives, found a couple of sources I hadn't been interested in before, and so on.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I'm just thinking about the various, different translation from German to English. And why they are different.

Take "Volk", especially with its adjective 'völkisch'. The Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund gets the English name "German Nationalist Protection and Defiance Federation". The paper Völkische Beobachter is either translated to "Voelkish Observer" or "People's Observer".
(Just now I'm trying to find a consensual translation for the 'völkish religions'.)

[Another confusion derives, when the English word 'comrad' is used for the German words "Kamerad" and "Genosse" likewise.
There are 'comrads' ("Genossen" in the hundreds of more than 150 years old local "co-op banks", and 'comrads' ("Kameraden") where mentioned since German is spoken.

(Nice poem here by Goethe:

Vanitas! Vanitatum Vanitas!

Hurrah!
So in the world true joy I taste,
Hurrah!
Then he who would be a comrade of mine
Must rattle his glass, and in chorus combine,
Over these dregs of wine.
... ... ...

In the original version:
und wer will mein kamerade sein,
der stosze mit an, der stimme mit ein.

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@okie,

You don't seem to understand the quote or the parts you left out of it okie..

Quote:

Replacement of universal and equal suffrage by an appropriate class or plural voting franchise; the simultaneous conversion to a parliamentary system that recognizes the personal accomplishments of the educated and the propertied in the realm of political work....

Obviously it wasn't to create a system where all were equal but rather it was to create a voting system where those with property and education ran the government.

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@okie,

Quote:

There are degrees of leftism, Walter. Good grief!

there are degrees of rightism as well okie. good grief!

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@Asherman,

hi , how r u? i liked your way in correcting the mistakes of many essays , so may i write some essays and i want you to recorrect it , as i want to improve my writing
thanks for your help. plz contact me on my email [email protected]

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

okie wrote:

On a more serious note, do not let the use of the word "socialist" muddy the waters here, as used in the website linked, as it obviously has a different meaning than we think of it today.

Wrong. It was used in the 1880's exactly in the very same way as it was used in the 1920's or today. And it definitely is not obvious at all - but as said a couple of weeks ago: your German might be better than mine.

Walter, I believe it was you that stated that the term "socialism" early on was more like communism, and not to be intrepreted as the same thing as the forms of socialism that we now think of them.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

You don't seem to understand the quote or the parts you left out of it okie..

Quote:
Replacement of universal and equal suffrage by an appropriate class or plural voting franchise; the simultaneous conversion to a parliamentary system that recognizes the personal accomplishments of the educated and the propertied in the realm of political work....

Obviously it wasn't to create a system where all were equal but rather it was to create a voting system where those with property and education ran the government.

Until 1917/8 there was a 'three-class franchise' in all Prussian states and most of Germany (only in Baden, Württemberg and Alsace-Lorraine had no property qualifications in their electoral laws).

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@parados,

parados wrote:

You don't seem to understand the quote or the parts you left out of it okie..

Quote:
Replacement of universal and equal suffrage by an appropriate class or plural voting franchise; the simultaneous conversion to a parliamentary system that recognizes the personal accomplishments of the educated and the propertied in the realm of political work....

Obviously it wasn't to create a system where all were equal but rather it was to create a voting system where those with property and education ran the government.

I saw that, Parados, and I think we could debate the meaning of that until the cows come home, but notice it says "political work." It is the elite political class, and I could point out that members of the communist party have alot more sway in communist countries, not saying this is an indication of a communist document, but just merely pointing out that this particular statement does not at all indicate a right wing philosophy, I think it rather argues for a leftist leaning direction. It seeks to do away with the equal rights of individuals, and gives it to the political elite for the good of the state, not the individual, which is not a conservative idea at all. I think the key to the statement is it relates to the "realm of political work."

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@okie,

In an effort to bring people back to what all of this is pointing to, I believe nazism and/of fascism was a hybrid of capitalism and socialism wherein the government directed, controlled, or even nationalized companies or industries for the good of the whole, the common good, so again it is a form of collectivism but it allowed private companies to exist, but only to do the bidding of the government. This is a perfect time for people on the left to hopefully see what kind of political philosophy this is, as we are witnessing a dose of this at this very time, simply watch Obama do what he is doing. And does anyone have the audacity to claim this is anything else than a leftist philosophy?

Again, I could bring up the term "Third Way," which I think denotes a path that borrows portions from both capitalism and socialism, and I think that is what Germany or Hitler attempted to do. Again, clearly not extreme right wing, but to the left of a more pure and free capitalistic system where the rights and good of individuals trump the state being in control of everything for the common good.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Again, I could bring up the term "Third Way," which I think denotes a path that borrows portions from both capitalism and socialism, and I think that is what Germany or Hitler attempted to do.

You really think the our Federal Republic of Germany was founded on ... what Hitler attempted to do?

On the other hand, you might not know what "Third Way" means, and to what it refers, how it is used ...

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter, my comments here relate to whether Hitler's philosophy, or whether Nazism or fascism were leftist policial philosophies or not. I am not attempting to analyze Germany going back to the umpteenth century, you can if you think it is necessary for you to figure it out. For example, you don't have to discover the origins and genealogy of a tree that grew from a seed to figure out what kind of tree it is and what it looks like. Similarly, in regard to the Third Way, you are also free to analyze the historical origins of the term, but simply look at the general meaning of it would enable you to prevent yourself from getting all tangled up over it all. I take this quote from the following site. Besides, we've talked about the Third Way before, no need to re-analyze the entire discussion again.

"The Third Way is a term that has been used to describe a political position which attempts to transcend left-wing and right-wing politics by advocating a mix of some left-wing and right-wing policies."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Walter, I believe it was you that stated that the term "socialism" early on was more like communism, and not to be intrepreted as the same thing as the forms of socialism that we now think of them.

Your belief isn't questioned here.

What I noted was that both Marx and Engels used the terms 'communism' and 'socialism' equally.

The above quotes refer to something which happened decades later, years after the Internatianal I and II, decades after the foundation of the Social-Democratic Party ...

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