What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

But I will gladly await your enlightenment of translations and your opinion of the context of Mussolini's statement.

Perhaps that is the better word if people are going to get all twisted up over the interpretation of social or socialism?

Walter Hinteler wrote:

The 'trouble' is that both Marx and Engels used the term "socialistic" and "communistic" synonymous during the first years.
They were only used generally different from the II. International onwards. (In Germany earlier, from the foundation of the Social-Democratic Party onwards, resp. even earlier from the foundation of the "German Workers Party onwards [1865].)

This would tend to buttress what Goldberg has written, and what I argue here, would it not, if Mussolini said he was opposite of Marxian socialism, if socialism was a word used for the extreme brand of socialism called marxism?

When the war ended in 1919 Socialism, as a doctrine, was already dead;

Such a conception of life makes Fascism the resolute negation of the doctrine underlying so-called scientific and Marxian socialism

Fascism also denies the immutable and irreparable character of the class struggle which is the natural outcome of this economic conception of history; above all it denies that the class struggle is the preponderating agent in social transformations. Having thus struck a blow at socialism in the two main points of its doctrine, all that remains of it is the sentimental aspiration-old as humanity itself-toward social relations in which the sufferings and sorrows of the humbler folk will be alleviated. But here again Fascism rejects the economic interpretation of felicity as something to be secured socialistically, almost automatically, at a given stage of economic evolution when all will be assured a maximum of material comfort.

This would tend to buttress what Goldberg has written, and what I argue here, would it not, if Mussolini said he was opposite of Marxian socialism, if socialism was a word used for the extreme brand of socialism called marxism?

I think you're fighting a losing battle here Okie. I know what you're suggesting, but our more liberal friends will never accept or even allow a discussion of it. I think some probably even mean well, but they seem to be unable to focus on or grasp a principle and discuss that at face value. They seem incapable of or at least unwilling to consider any form of abstract thought.

They will continue to insist on discussing vague historical principles apart from the concept or bring in unrelated interpretations or obfusicate with illustrations intended to negate any concept that they can't understand or that doesn't fit with their preconceived notions.

I find the subject you've introduced here interesting and instructive. But I also think it is sufficiently complicated in scope and concept that you are unlikely to find enough people here who understand it or want to understand it enough to discuss it at face value. The sheer complexity of it provides too many directions for the discussion to take.

okie wrote:

As ican points out, the actual practices of collectivism within the fascist idealogy............

If you're interested in "actual practices of collectivism" and if you want to use the nationalisation and control of companies by the government as a yardstick to judge whether a particular government is right-wing or left-wing, you might be interested in reading this paper:..............

It seems clear that neither the Nazi Party nor Hitler had any ideological devotion to private
ownership. 34 In their theoretical work on the relationship between politicians and firms, Shleifer
and Vishny (1994, p. 1,015) stress that anti-market governments are compatible with
privatization, as long as they can retain control over the firms through strong regulation.

inexorably increasing entropy

S really does = K x Ln W

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=fascism&x=29&y=8
Main Entry: fas•cism
...
1 often capitalized : the principles of the Fascisti; also : the movement or governmental regime embodying their principles
2 a : any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition
b : any tendency toward or actual exercise of severe autocratic or dictatorial control (as over others within an organization) <the nascent fascism of a detective who is not content merely to do his duty -- George Nobbe> <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J.W.Aldridge> <a kind of personal fascism, a dictatorship of the ego over the more generous elements of the soul -- Edmond Taylor>

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=nazism&x=16&y=5
Main Entry: na•zism
...
1 : the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the führer : German fascism
2 : a Nazi movement or regime

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=collectivism&x=11&y=6
Main Entry: col•lec•tiv•ism
…
1 a : a politico-economic system characterized by collective control especially over production and distribution of goods and services in contrast to free enterprise <forces that have led to individualism have in the last fifty years been successfully opposed by the forces of collectivism -- M.R.Cohen> b : extreme control of the economic, political, and social life of its subjects by an authoritarian state (as under communism or fascism) c : a doctrine or system that makes the group or the state actively responsible for the social and economic welfare of its members
2 : a social theory or doctrine that emphasizes the importance of the collective (as the society or state) in contrast to the individual and that tends to analyze society in terms of collective behavior …

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=individualism&x=21&y=7
Main Entry: in•di•vid•u•al•ism
…
1 a (1) : the ethical doctrine or principle that the interests of the individual himself are or ought to be paramount in determination of conduct : ethical egoism; also : conduct guided by the principle (2) : the conception that all values, rights, and duties originate in individuals and that the community or social whole has no value or ethical significance not derived from its constituent individuals b (1) : the doctrine which holds that the chief end of society is the promotion of individual welfare and the chief end of moral law is the development of individual character; also : conduct or practice guided by such a doctrine (2) : a theory or policy having primary regard for individual rights and especially maintaining the political and economic independence of the individual or maintaining the independence of individual initiative, action, and interests (as in industrial organization or in government); also : conduct or practice guided by such a theory or policy -- compare COLLECTIVISM, PATERNALISM, SOCIALISM c : any vigorous and independent striving toward an individual goal or any markedly independent assertion of individual opinions especially without regard for others or in defiance of an institution or larger authority …

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=conservatism&x=23&y=8
Main Entry: con•serv•a•tism
...
1 a : the disposition in politics to preserve what is established <twentieth century politics of New Jersey has continued to be dominated ... by the natural conservatism of the industrial and business interests -- American Guide Series: New Jersey>
b : a political philosophy based on a strong sense of tradition and social stability, stressing the importance of established institutions (as religion, property, the family, and class structure), and preferring gradual development with preservation of the best elements of the past to abrupt change <political conservatism in the United States ... has become identified with the business interests -- Francis Biddle>
2 usually capitalized a : the principles and policies of the Conservative party in the United Kingdom <the fundamental and distinct tenets of Conservatism -- R.A.Butler> b : the Conservative party or its members <whether Conservatism enjoys a long tenure of office -- L.D.Epstein>
3 a : the tendency to accept an existing fact, order, situation, or phenomenon and to be cautious toward or suspicious of change : extreme wariness and caution in outlook <acquired conservatism which normally increases with increasing age and sagacity -- H.G.Armstrong> <conservatism in banking practices> <conservatism in interpreting data> b : strong resistance to innovation : relative freedom from change <the conservatism of the area ... has helped to preserve the evidences of its past -- R.W.Southern>; specifically : the tendency of certain plants or animal groups (as the brachiopods) to remain narrowly adapted to a particular environment and undergo minimal evolutionary change or differentiation
4 : CONSERVATIVE JUDAISM