What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Your problem is that Walter and some others are unwilling to recognize that the terms 'liberal' and 'conservative' and 'left' and 'right' are defined differently in Europe than they are in the United States. And they dishonestly refuse to acknowledge that you are using the American definitions rather than the European ones.

But then some seem far more interested in semantics and dismissing or ridiculing anything that is the least bit uncomfortable or difficult for them rather than actually discussing a topic that would be interesting to me and others. You're probably fighting a losing battle there.

Well, okie is talking about Europe, Germany, the German party NSDAP. A program in German, for Germans. Made pre 1919, finished 1920.

That has nothing at all to do how he or you or someone else defines 'left', 'right', 'conservative', 'liberal' today, here, in the USA or Greenland.

This has nothing at all to do with 'semantics' but with how serious and with honesty you approach a historic event.

And what some do here is ... well, a strange view of history, to name it mildly.

I would agree with you if the subject was history. The subject is not history, however, but ideology and those factors, that climate, those processes that produce ruthless dictators in history. If you insist on it being a scholarly discussion of history, then Okie could be at a disadvantage. But if you honestly understand where Okie is coming from, then he isn't that far off base or not off base at all in his point of view.

4 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Except that Okie's attempting to take his examples from history. Unfortunately, the history he describes shows little resemblance to any actual historical events.

Perhaps he has a future as Science Fiction writer; they often do alternate histories.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Not attempting to take examples from history. He IS taking his examples from history because that is the only place that examples exist. I was really interested in the topic too and wish it could be discussed to see if there is any merit to be found in Okie's theory. Alas, it seems that only Okie's 'sins' are being discussed by anybody other than Okie.

But that seems to be the frequent MO of A2K for anything even remotely controversial or that requires anybody to think instead of just cut and paste.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Okie and Ican are profoundly ignorant. That doesn't mean they are stupid. If the subject were particle physics, i'd be happy to concede that i am profoundly ignorant of that subject. The problem arises because they let their political ideology do their thinking for them. It's all rather simple-minded really. In their reactionary world, left=bad, right=good. So, they not only have a stake in claiming that all ruthless dictators are/were leftists, they have an equal stake in denying that anyone on the right were ever a ruthless dictator. That's the source of Okie's latest attempt to claim that all the right-wing dictators whom i have named were not really right-wing, but were "leftward." (His rhetoric has drifted from socialist to leftist, and now they are "leftward," whatever the Hell that's supposed to mean.)

Here's my--not a dictionary's or Santanta's--definition of what actually constitutes the full political spectrum left to right:

Absolute Dictatorship.....PA.........ER....|....CR.........PD.....Absolute Anarchy
Where,
PA = Pure Aristocracy
ER = Elitist Republic
CR = Constitutional Republic
PD = Pure Democracy

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

I would agree with you if the subject was history. The subject is not history, however, but ideology and those factors, that climate, those processes that produce ruthless dictators in history. If you insist on it being a scholarly discussion of history, then Okie could be at a disadvantage. But if you honestly understand where Okie is coming from, then he isn't that far off base or not off base at all in his point of view.

The subject I am talking about is history: 25-points, published 1920, in German and in Germany.

okie has told me on this thread a couple of times that he had studied the NSDAP history, and that I don't understand it.

Why is he in disadvantage again, you said?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Has he said that you don't understand it?

Or has he said that you don't understand what he is saying?

There's a very large difference between these two things.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Fox wrote:

. . . if you honestly understand where Okie is coming from, then he isn't that far off base or not off base at all in his point of view.

As usual, Fox has nothing useful to contribute to the discussion. We have no doubt where Okie is coming from, the problem is simply that he is wrong--dead wrong. When the Spanish Civil War of the 20th century (those ignorant of history need to be aware that it was not the first civil war in Spanish history) raged, Americans from the left joined the Abraham Lincoln Brigade to go to Spain and fight Franco and the Falange--because he was a right-wing demagogue who aimed at becoming a right-wing dictator. He was supported by Mussolini and the Fascisti and Hitler and the NSDAP because they were right-wing and supported his goals. The American left in the 1930s, such as it was, had no illusions about any of this, and didn't need a score card to keep track of the players.

Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Metaxas were right-wing by anybody's standards. By American standards of the 1930s and by American standards of today. Okie has been constantly retrenching because he's getting pasted in this debate, and he is now fighting in the last ditch. At first he was claiming that all dictators have been socialists. Then he modified that to left-wing. Now he has fallen back on referring to Pinochet as "leftward," whatever the Hell that is supposed to mean. If he had been in Chile in the 1970s and had publicly described Pinochet as "leftward," he would have ended up being one of the "disappeared."

Insisting on a "scholarly discussion of history" is a good thing to do in any discussion of history. Certainly there have been left-wing dictators, such as Old Joe Stalin, Marshall Broz (Tito) and Fidel Castro. Nevertheless, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Metaxas (bet you didn't know about him, huh?) were all right-wing dictators, and even a casual familiarity with history (something Okie, Ican and Fox never trouble themselves with) makes this clear.

Hitler and the NSDAP were right-wing by American standards. There's no getting around it. So all we see here is Fox joining the fingers-in-their-ears "nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah I can't hear you" crowd with Okie and Ican.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Not attempting to take examples from history.

Yes, attempting. Because he is not doing it successfully.

Just as we are attempting to communicate with you.

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@Setanta,

Setanta, say again what you think are the substantive differences between what you characterize as dictatorships on the left and dictatorships on the right?

All dictatorships, regardless of their rationales for how they defend or defended their existences, are statists, supporters of statism.

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=statism&x=20&y=5
Main Entry: stat·ism
...
: concentration of all economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government <abandoned her former reliance on statism in favor of private enterprise -- World> -- compare GOVERNMENTALISM 1

All statists degenerate into perpetrators of atrocities against human beings. Historical classification of those statist atrocities and/or who promoted those statists doesn't change the fact that they are statists.

All contemporary leftists are statists or desire to be part of that which is a statist society.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

If you insist on it being a scholarly discussion of history, then Okie could be at a disadvantage. But if you honestly understand where Okie is coming from, then he isn't that far off base or not off base at all in his point of view.

Foxfyre wrote:

"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it." (Thomas Jefferson)

If only you guys would stop using reason to combat okie.....

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Has he said that you don't understand it?

Or has he said that you don't understand what he is saying?

There's a very large difference between these two things.

Well, certainly you are correct when you think that my English knowledge isn't the best. And I even may have forgotten quite a bit since I left school more than 40 years ago.

But be assured that I still do understand some basic English - like the difference between the two sentences above.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Quote:

All contemporary leftists are statists or desire to be part of that which is a statist society.

Ipse dixit--this is a statement without foundation, and another pathetic example of the attempt which you and Okie continuously make to define your terms in such as manner as to sustain the contention without being obliged to actually prove it from the historical evidence.

"When I use a word” Humpty Dumpty said, "it means just what I choose it to mean"neither more nor less."

From Lewis Carol's Through the Looking Glass

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@Walter Hinteler,

Well, it does not sound at all like Okie that he would have said that you do not understand German history, and without a direct quote IN CONTEXT, I will probably continue to think you most likely did misunderstand what he was saying about that.

2 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Any source where I wrote here that okie had said, I didn't understand German history?

I don't mind a lot about whom you quote how and where, but: please, if you quote me, do it correctly.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

It's "all" our problem; we just don't comprehend what you and okie say - most of the time. You never contradict yourself, never make vague statements, and never use ad hominems. Right!

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Any source where I wrote here that okie had said, I didn't understand German history?

I don't mind a lot about whom you quote how and where, but: please, if you quote me, do it correctly.

Here you go, in your own words:
http://able2know.org/topic/66117-45#post-3731058

Walter Hinteler wrote:

The subject I am talking about is history: 25-points, published 1920, in German and in Germany.

okie has told me on this thread a couple of times that he had studied the NSDAP history, and that I don't understand it.

Why is he in disadvantage again, you said?

1 Reply

While there seem to be impregnable differences how those 25-points can be brought in line - there can't be any, how the NSDAP and it's members were in just one way.

(For those, who aren't so well read like one or two here: see Gottfried Feder: Das Programm der NSDAP und seine weltanschaulichen Grundannahmen (= Nationalsozialistische Bibliothek, Heft 1). München, 1930. page 20 ff ["Gottfried Federer: The Program of the NSDAP and its political and philosophical basic assumptions" in 'Nationalsocialistic Library, Vol 1] and Joseph Goebbels: Der Nazi-Sozi. Fragen und Antworten für den Nationalsozialisten. München 1926 ["Goebbels: The Nazi-Sozi. Questions and Answers for the Nationalsocialist".] (Here especially from page 24 onwards.)

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@Foxfyre,

Well, if that was misleading, I'll say/write it again:

okie has told me on this thread a couple of times that he had studied the NSDAP history and that I don't understand it.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter, Don't feel bad; none of us really understands what Foxie and okie tells us almost daily.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, if that was misleading, I'll say/write it again:

okie has told me on this thread a couple of times that he had studied the NSDAP history and that I don't understand it.

And I'm saying again that what you are saying about Okie doesn't sound like Okie. He can speak for himself, but until he does, I tend to believe that you misunderstood what Okie was saying about what you do or do not understand.

1 Reply

What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

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