20
   

What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 07:44 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
Quote:
"What is Obama doing in Afghanistan?"


If anybody needs that to be explained, anything that follows is also a non sequitur.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 07:47 am
@okie,
okie, You might do well to stop reading stuff you always manage to misinterpret, and get a bit of reality outside of your abode.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:26 am
@marsz,
marsz wrote:

The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

___
Hitler's policies are virtually identical to Republicanism?????????



So oe and other libs read the 25 points and claim it is like Republicanism? Incredible. They apparently know nothing about Republicans here. It sounds more like the liberal Democratic platform, or what Moveon.org would be in favor of.

okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:44 am
I could quote alot more points than this, but lets take the following ones. Anyone suggesting these are not liberal but are instead Republican, they need to have their heads examined. Fact is, Obama likes to talk about the greed and the rich, blah blah. He surely listened to his friend and mentor, the Reverend Wright, thats for sure. I wonder if he also thinks as Wright that the evil and greedy Jews may be the cause of some of our ills? I think so. Of course, he won't admit it now. Hey, read up on Black Liberation Theology, people!

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:48 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, You might do well to stop reading stuff you always manage to misinterpret, and get a bit of reality outside of your abode.

For starters, you apparently do not know what "profit sharing," "nationalization," "and a few other terms might mean.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:52 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

I could quote alot more points than this, but lets take the following ones. Anyone suggesting these are not liberal but are instead Republican, they need to have their heads examined. Fact is, Obama likes to talk about the greed and the rich, blah blah. He surely listened to his friend and mentor, the Reverend Wright, thats for sure. I wonder if he also thinks as Wright that the evil and greedy Jews may be the cause of some of our ills? I think so. Of course, he won't admit it now. Hey, read up on Black Liberation Theology, people!

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.



I don't have a clue what the "liberal" or Republican party programs looked alike in 1920, when these points were written for the first time (as DAP party program points) or later in 1923.

But why don't you publish them, okie?
And was the past 1918-revolution time comparable to Germany in those days? Why?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:58 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race. [/b]


This actually was and is a good argument for the extreme right wink ideas of those two parties (the DAP and its follower-up, the NSDAP), since all the left and even the centrist-right Centre Party ("Zentrum") were against death penalty.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:59 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.


What do you think of the amendment to that point, okie - and why don't and didn't you post it?

Quote:
Gegenüber den verlogenen Auslegungen des Punktes 17 durch Gegner der Partei ist noch
folgende Feststellung notwendig:1
Da die NSDAP. auf dem Boden des Privateigentums steht, ergibt sich von selbst, daß der
Passus "Unentgeltliche Enteignung" nur auf die Schaffung gesetzlicher Möglichkeiten Bezug
hat, Boden, der auf unrechtmäßige Weise erworben wurde oder nicht nach den
Gesichtspunkten des Volkswohls verwaltet wird, wenn nötig zu enteignen. Dies richtet sich
demgemäß in erster Linie gegen die jüdische Grundstücksspekulations-Gesellschaften.
gez. Adolf Hitler.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 10:04 am
@okie,
The problem you have okie is that you ignore what you don't want to see.

The 25 points include many things that all political stripes would agree with.
You are only willing to look at the ones that support your theory.

Let me ask you some simple questions.
Do you believe people should be able to determine for themselves?
Do you believe your nation should not be treated less than other nations?
Do you think non citizens should have the same rights as citizens?
Do you think immigration should be controlled?
Do you think immigrants that take jobs from citizens should be expelled from the country?
Do you think people should work?
Do you think there should be a middle class?
Do you think schools should teach citizenship?
Do you think the press should be free to spread lies about Republicans?

Now okie..
List which of number 1-25 you think would apply to Obama or the Dems. Then we can discuss how you are correct or not.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 10:40 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

The problem you have okie is that you ignore what you don't want to see.

The 25 points include many things that all political stripes would agree with.
You are only willing to look at the ones that support your theory.

Let me ask you some simple questions.
Do you believe people should be able to determine for themselves?
Do you believe your nation should not be treated less than other nations?
Do you think non citizens should have the same rights as citizens?
Do you think immigration should be controlled?
Do you think immigrants that take jobs from citizens should be expelled from the country?
Do you think people should work?
Do you think there should be a middle class?
Do you think schools should teach citizenship?
Do you think the press should be free to spread lies about Republicans?

Now okie..
List which of number 1-25 you think would apply to Obama or the Dems. Then we can discuss how you are correct or not.

Again, to repeat, again, I posted the following on Page 2 of this thread, to preface the analysis of the 25 points. It points out that some of the points of the movement were clearly leftist, others were neither left or right but could have been normal for almost any country or were an outgrowth of World War I. Go back and read the post on Page 2. I think any honest person that knows anything at all about liberal and conservative tendencies would rate the points pretty closely to what I have done. There may be some disagreements here or there, but not enough to change the reality of what the points predominantly are.

"I have highlighted what I would judge leftist policies in red, and the most leftist policies in bold red. I have also highlighted in blue those policies that I have judged to be a result of World War I, simply a reaction to a German defeat and attempt to regain their footing, and in so doing, the hatreds and resentments of Hitler are evidenced by those points, that are neither left or right in my opinion, just Hitler and the German peoples mindset. I have left in black those points that seem to me to be fairly normal and reasonable for most countries. As you can see, the vast majority of the 25 points I think are clearly leftist in nature."

I would invite anyone to rate in the red, blue, and black type, the points, as I have done on Page 2 given in the following link. I would be especially interested in the judgement of conservatives, like Foxfyre, ican, etc.

http://able2know.org/topic/66117-2#post-3628207
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 10:50 am
@okie,
I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about every single point, but at first blush, I concur with your color coding.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:03 am
@okie,
Let's start with your first point:

okie wrote:
I have highlighted what I would judge leftist policies in red, and the most leftist policies in bold red.


okie wrote:
We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.



So, in your opinion, fighting against corruption in a parliamentary administration is something only radical leftists are committed to? Conservatives, in your opinion, usually appoint politicians to positions based on partisanship rather than character or fitness for the position?

Interesting.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:15 am
@old europe,
Well, and Roman Law seems to be a very conservative king of law system:


okie wrote:

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.




Roman law, like you've got it in the USA, isn't it, okie?

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:17 am
@old europe,
While I think you raise a valid consideration, let's keep it within the proper context.

The war is against 'the corrupt parliamentary administration'--not 'corruption within the administration' as you rewrote it.

I think that is an important distinction and there is a possible implication there that must be considered.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:23 am
@Foxfyre,
Well, the original text is "Wir bekämpfen die korrumpierende Parlamentswirtschaft einer Stellenbesetzung nur nach Parteigesichtspunkten ohne Rücksichten auf Charakter und Fähigkeiten."

It's obviously a matter of opinion, but I'd say that that doesn't exactly translate into "corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed", but rather into "the corrupting parliamentary practice of appointing men".
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:24 am
@okie,
Okie, I've indicated the points in the "25 Points" I FAVOR or OPPOSE--I do not know which if any are Republican or Democrat points:

FAVOR! 1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

FAVOR! 2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

OPPOSE! 3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

OPPOSE! 4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

OPPOSE! 5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

FAVOR! 6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

OPPOSE!We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

FAVOR! 7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. NOT OK! If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

OPPOSE! 8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

FAVOR! 9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

OPPOSE! 10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

OPPOSE! 11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

NOT OK! 12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

OPPOSE! 13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

OPPOSE! 14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

OPPOSE! 15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

OPPOSE! 16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

OPPOSE! 17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

OPPOSE! 18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

???? 19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

OPPOSE! 20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

OPPOSE! 21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

OPPOSE! 22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

OPPOSE! 23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

OPPOSE! (a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

OPPOSE! (b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

OPPOSE! (c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

OPPOSE! Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

OPPOSE! 24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

OPPOSE! The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

OPPOSE! 25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

OPPOSE! The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

OPPOSE! The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:32 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Well, the original text is "Wir bekämpfen die korrumpierende Parlamentswirtschaft einer Stellenbesetzung nur nach Parteigesichtspunkten ohne Rücksichten auf Charakter und Fähigkeiten."

It's obviously a matter of opinion, but I'd say that that doesn't exactly translate into "corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed", but rather into "the corrupting parliamentary practice of appointing men".


Hmmm. Is that a direct translation? (Your English is excellent. My German is practically non existent.)

When I plugged your German phrase into my very eccentric and inadequate translator it came out:
"We fight a position cast's corruptive parliament economy only after party points of view without regards to character and abilities." (which is most likely not very helpful here.)

But if your translation is correct that the objection is to "the corrupting parliamentary practice of appointing men", I would have to think about that as an (American) 'leftist' view. It seems to me that our homegrown leftists are not opposed to 'appointing men'. But neither are those right of center.

Depending on what the underlying motive was for the statement, it is possible this one could be moved to the more generic category though.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:36 am
@old europe,
Indeed. See the original pamphlet

http://i26.tinypic.com/30ayvx1.jpg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:46 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, I think Hitler disdained parliamentary wrangling and procedures, which includes arguing and working out solutions according to legislative and democratic means. I think he wanted the party, the guys at the top, probably him ultimately, to make the decisions and policy. See, he thought he was the messiah, the only righteous judgement, the ultimate arbitor of what was right or wrong. This goes along with the belief in the State, a strong State, he didn't want all the people's little worthless opinions making their way into policy through the corrupting parliamentary procedures, etc.

Thats my take on it.

And that is clearly leftist. They think people can't manage their own affairs, nor can they even send representatives that know what they are doing.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 11:58 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Foxfyre, I think Hitler disdained parliamentary wrangling and procedures, which includes arguing and working out solutions according to legislative and democratic means. I think he wanted the party, the guys at the top, probably him ultimately, to make the decisions and policy. See, he thought he was the messiah, the only righteous judgement, the ultimate arbitor of what was right or wrong. This goes along with the belief in the State, a strong State, he didn't want all the people's little worthless opinions making their way into policy through the corrupting parliamentary procedures, etc.

Thats my take on it.

And that is clearly leftist. They think people can't manage their own affairs, nor can they even send representatives that know what they are doing.


I agree that Hitler wanted absolute and unchallenged authority, and a Parliament would get in the way of that. But, in truth, what national leader has not chafed under a government system that thwarted his own ambitions? Including ours? Still, more and more centralized power in government is definitely one component found in the American Left.

Most of the 'planks' in that list of Nazi principles are not ambiguous, but the question in this case is what was the meaning and intent in that particular 'plank' of the Nazi ideology? OE seemed to take exception to your interpretation of it as a 'leftist' goal. And I honestly don't know for sure what it intended.
 

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