What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

@okie,

okie wrote:

As much as you want to explain it away, Nazi Party had the name for a reason, Walter.

Indeed. And since you studied the NSDAP's history, you know it.

okie wrote:

Again, examine the 25 points of the party and try to convince everyone that it isn't liberal leftist thinking. Try it. If you are so smart, go ahead. We can take each point at a time, but I think one of the central points pretty much ends the debate in favor of my conclusion here. The entire premise of the party was "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD." What is more socialist or leftist in philosophy than that, Walter?

Well, okie, even if you were correct here - and that is what I doubt - it's just from one period during the NSDAP#s history.No doubt: it worked for what it was intended.

But surprisngly, it even works 80 years later ... with neo-Nazis as well - as proved - with other ring wingers.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

okie wrote:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD, is that a socialist principle or a right wing principle?

Neither. It's a Christian idea.

But was it a "Christian idea" when pushed by the German Nazi Party?

The General Welfare clause of the US Constitution, as the Founders saw it, was related to those activities of government that would benefit the whole of society such as street lights or a city sewer system. There was no intent to benefit any individual or organization or group with that concept.

"Common Good before Individual Good", however, was the 25th point of Phillip Gavin's 25 Principles of the Nazi Party:

Quote:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

Christian principle? I don't think so.

The same as our own "General Welfare" clause? Not even close.

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@okie,

So you're claiming that the political climate of Germany in 1930 was more liberal than the United States' in 2009?

Do you have any evidence of that other than your "feelings"?

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Revolution from the Right: Fascism

Quote:

...Inter-war fascism was the product of a crisis of capitalism, threatened from within by the breakdown of the financial, social, and political structures which maintained it, and from without by revolutionary socialism.

...

This pincer movement, so Marxists believe, caused [fascism] to drop its liberal disguise which made it appear rational and humanistic, and resort to an openly authoritarian, terroristic form of state government. Fascism was either directly generated by bourgeois elements or cynically manipulated by them to defend the capitalist state, often with the direct collaboration of residual feudal forces such as the Church and aristocracy.

...

for fascists a period of perceived national decline and decadence is giving way to an era of renewal in a post-liberal new order.

...

I found it to be a very interesting article, covering much wider subjects than what I've picked out here.

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@Foxfyre,

Except that the Nazis never did more than pay lip service to the concept. They murdered, enslaved, and oppressed.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Except that the Nazis never did more than pay lip service to the concept. They murdered, enslaved, and oppressed.

Yes they did. The "unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizationsprovisions" of the "Common good before the individual good" concept gave them all the license they needed to do anything to anybody.

And while nobody is comparing our current leaders or government to Hitler and the Nazis, the lesson of the danger of giving government too much power to control the lives of the people should not be lost on those who value their liberty.

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@Foxfyre,

Yes, and the lesson of 80% or more of a population being Christian should be warning that it leads to dictators like in Italy and Cuba.

The "concept" didn't lead to the Nazis doing what they did. As was pointed out, they abandoned that principle.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

From Wiki:

Quote:

Hitler's beer hall oratory, attacking Jews, social democrats, liberals, reactionary monarchists, capitalists and communists, began attracting adherents.

Note he railed against capitalists as well, ci. This supports what I have been saying all along, he sought to borrow elements of socialism and capitalism and embark on a path somewhere between the two, which some have referred to as a "Third Way." He used the discontent and feeling of failure from World War I, the nationalism, to solidify his support, which I do not think can be tied to either left or right, but everything was linked to making the Jews scapegoats, and part of that was their capitalistic greed.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

okie wrote:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD, is that a socialist principle or a right wing principle? Question for Walter or anyone else that wants to tackle it. Even George in his infinite wisdom, tell us what it is.

Lest this phrase be confused with the "General Welfare" intent of our own Constitution, you should include the principles that were used to illustrate that phrase.

I don't think it should be confused, although the modern liberal is confusing it daily by using the "general welfare" clause to try to justify all kinds of socialistic programs. The key to the "Common Good Before Individual Good" is the word "before," and the concept is a communistic or socialistic principle, I just don't think that can be disputed. It can be disputed, but not validly in my opinion.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

okie wrote:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD, is that a socialist principle or a right wing principle?

Neither. It's a Christian idea.

Wrong again. Love others as yourself is a personal code of behavior, not meant to be a government principle, but be that as it may, loving others as ourselves places us equally, so common good is not placed above our good, and everything is to be done honestly, earning our own keep first, then helping others. We can't help others without helping ourselves first. In other words, if don't work to support ourselves, we have no ability to help anyone else by giving them a job, or to give them a dollar in a time of need. And Christianity teaches clearly against stealing from others, which the government does in a "common good before individual good" way of doing things, by taking from the producers to give to non-producers.

Also, Christianity is all about personal choice,not forced behavior. This should be very clear. I can't quote it but there is scripture that says if somebody isn't willing to work to support themselves, then they may deserve to starve or be poor. Also, Jesus said the poor would always be. In other words, there would probably be no cure for poorness. Although we are taught to help those in need, there is the idea of teaching somebody how to fish is far better than giving them fish. And that is a conservative idea, not a liberal one, which wants to simply give everyone the fish they need to survive.

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

I totally disagree with you! LOL These are not two peas in a pod, but their style of writing is too different with Foxie attempting to sell us on her version of reality, and okie posting mostly non-reality that he imagines by his own brain-power. okie has one of the best crystal balls on this planet by his ability to forecast things like "Obama is a failure" before he's been in office for less than six months (maybe two months). Most history experts on rating presidents usually wait years after they're out of office, but okie has these special abilities uncommon on this planet.

Yeah, I see two distinct personalities here, but they could be schizophrenics too!

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxie, There's a thing called the Constitution that protects us; it's only when GWBush ignored it that we were in peril for our safety.

Show us when and how Obama has ignored the Constitution? I'll show you all the ways GWBush ignored the Constitution after you list yours.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie has one of the best crystal balls on this planet by his ability to forecast things like "Obama is a failure" before he's been in office for less than six months (maybe two months).

Looks like the crystal ball of common sense is working. Obama is a huge bust, and the polls are starting to tell us more and more people are waking up to it. Even your own posts, if you would read them, would tell you that he is disappointing even you, a flaming liberal.

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@okie,

okie, You had to go and ruin your whole thesis by ending with

Quote:

a flaming liberal.

If you had really learned anything about me, I'm a moderate and registered as an Independent. Your crystal ball failed you again!

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Christian principle? I don't think so.

The same as our own "General Welfare" clause? Not even close.

I didn't response to your above quote, and especially I never said that it is the same or even close to your General Welfare clause.
Actually, I never mentioned the General Welfare clause and/or the US-constitution.

I don't like it when I'm misquoted.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Note he railed against capitalists as well, ci.

Really? Source for that please. (I mean, since you studied the NSDAP, you certainly are aware of who occupied what posts in the party.)

1 Reply

@okie,

I rest my case since I'm wrong every time.

Chapeau to your expert knowledge, okie.

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@Walter Hinteler,

okie will go through life thinking he's the smartest (along with Foxie) until he meets his maker. His school did him great harm by graduating him at the top of his class, because he believes he is "that" smart!

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@Walter Hinteler,

Not only my opinion is wrong, I just noticed but about everything what was written about the "Confessing Church" (BK) as opposed to the "German Evangelical Church" (DEK). Shocked

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

okie wrote:

Note he railed against capitalists as well, ci.

Really? Source for that please. (I mean, since you studied the NSDAP, you certainly are aware of who occupied what posts in the party.)

All I did was quote ci's link, taken from wikipedia, Walter, read the post. Good grief, if I use my own links, you disagree, and when I use liberals posts, you still disagree. And besides, one would think railing against capitalists for Hitler would be common knowledge for a self proclaimed expert on German history, that lives in Germany.

1 Reply

What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

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