What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

It's not the reading that matters; it's the comprehension of what one reads that's important. When we read, we are required to remember the facts of what we read; otherwise, it's a waste of time.

okie wrote:

For example, I would love to hear from George, or anyone, why Hitler was right or left wing, based upon this statement of his:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"

Economic policy is I would say a huge part of political philosophy, George.

Hitler never ever said such.

Since you didn't give any source for the above:

It's from Strasser's "Nationalsozialistische Briefe" ('National Socialist Letters'), a bi-weekly magazine, and published with a 'letter to the editors' , in 1925.

Still on the trip of teaching German history, okie?

Nicely done Walter !

Unfortunately facts don't persuade the 'true believers' in absurd doctrines.

Perhaps Hitler was "to the left" (whatever that means) of the United States in some respects.

Okie concludes from this that everything in that direction leads inexorably to dictatorship.

More to the point, he also asserts that there is no difference between things as disparate as authoritarian socialism as practiced in the Soviet proletarian paradise and authoritarianism as practiced by Facist states.

While they do have authoritarianism and the lack of freedom in common, and the extremes of left & right political slavery do tend to diminish all the other differences, the paths through which these two systems achieved power and rationalized its use could not have been more different.

Alas, Okie is armed with a malignant certainty that is not disturbed by questions, inconsistencies or even contradictory facts.

One of the running debates here in politics has been with mainly "old europe," but other as well, in regard to whether Hitler was an extreme rightist or a socialist or leftist. I have now read some of Mein Kampf and have also read the 25 points of the Nazi Party. I believe the evidence is clear from these documents that Hitler was leftist or a socialist, in context with American politics, left and right. I am going to list the Nazi 25 points of the party in the following.

I have highlighted what I would judge leftist policies in red, and the most leftist policies in bold red. I have also highlighted in blue those policies that I have judged to be a result of World War I, simply a reaction to a German defeat and attempt to regain their footing, and in so doing, the hatreds and resentments of Hitler are evidenced by those points, that are neither left or right in my opinion, just Hitler and the German peoples mindset. I have left in black those points that seem to me to be fairly normal and reasonable for most countries. As you can see, the vast majority of the 25 points I think are clearly leftist in nature.

Nazi Party 25 Points:

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

It is cited as a quote of Adolf Hitler in John Toland's 1976 book on Hitler - as a quote from Hitler's May 1, 1927 speech. If you have evidence to refute this, please do so, but I don't find the quote inconsistent with Hitler's philosophy and other quotes. So are you sure Hitler never said such, and if you are sure, provide the backup.

The challenge stands, Walter.

For further reading (in English, there are published quite a few more in German) see for instance Dan P. Silverman, Hitler's economy: Nazi work creation programs, 1933-1936, (Harvard University Press, 1998) and especially Avraham Barkai, Nazi Economics: Ideology, Theory, and Policy
(Yale University Press, 1990).

And, well, I didn't live in the those days, and it may be that Hitler once said/quoted such.

I admit that a few (conservative) historians, and here especially US-Americans, regard National-Socialism as being close to Socialism, even Communism.

Inded, the Strasser brothers (and their followers, the so-called 'Strassianians') may be considered as representatives of a Socialistic wing (NB: NOT Communism!) within the NSDAP.

That definitely ended in 1930, after the confrontational meeting of Hitler and Otto Strasser (May 20/21, meeting with the Strasser group).
This was finalised on July 4, 1930, with the public call from Strasser group Socialists leave the the NSDAO .

Hitler didn't want to frighten the capitalists with "wild experiments".
Thus, he rejected socialism, favoured individual initiative and free enterprise, defended the right to hold private property.

For further reading (in English, there are published quite a few more in German) see for instance Dan P. Silverman, Hitler's economy: Nazi work creation programs, 1933-1936, (Harvard University Press, 1998) and especially Avraham Barkai, Nazi Economics: Ideology, Theory, and Policy
(Yale University Press, 1990).

So, the truth is you don't have proof he never said it as cited by my source.

Again, you are very welcome to analyze the 25 points of the Nazi Party and attempt to make your argument that it is a conservative list of points instead of a liberal or leftist agenda. Somehow, I doubt you will try it.

If you can't defend your opinion with any substance, then quit bothering me here. This forum is about posting evidence once in a while at least.