Alright. I'll try again to give some basic information.
Opposite to the the situation in e.g. the USA, Germany had a distinctive party system, even in times of the empire: from the left to the right.
When the empire collapsed, the party structures that have evolved over decades stayed as they were but now became responsible for the every day politics.
Slightly changes in party names happened, but from 1918/19 onwards they were generally spoken
- the conservatives (mainly represented by the 'Deutschnationale Volkspartei' ["German National People's Party"] on the right side,
- the political Catholicism (respresented by the 'Zentrum' ["Centre"] and the 'Bayerische Volkspartei' ["Bavarian People's Party"] in the centre of the political spectrum,
- the right ('Deutsche Volkspartei' ["German People's Party"]) and left ('Deutsche Demokratische Partei' ["German Democratic Party"]) liberal parties,
- and the Social-Democrats on the left side.
On the extreme left wing were the Communists. On the extreme right later the NSDAP.
About 20 more splinter parties tried to get a seat in the 'Reichstag' (and even more on in the various states). Some succeeded, like the "Independent Social-Democrats", the "Evangelical German People's Party" and a few more.
As generally know, it was a big chaos in Germany. (Until 1920, still more than 400,000 men were fighting in the various [about 300] 'Freicorps' [free corps, unofficial military organisations].)
All poltical parties had been surprised by the "revolution" (= end of the monarchy and sudden start of democracy).
While the "established" parties tried to re-define their former party programs to a democratic, republican attitude, new parties had to try to find supporters.
The 'Deutsche Arbeiter Partei' (DAP) started in Munich, with the idea of promoting their extremist right-wing views under a left name.
The idea would have worked elsewhere perhaps better but in Munich: Munich/Bavaria had enough parties - and was the very first left/communist/socialist republic in Germany (though only for a short period, but what I mean is that the left side was already "taken").
Hitler and his 'group' not only changed the name, but their program was a lot better focused on what they thought Germans wanted: everything from the right to the left for every social stratum, centred around their racial ideas (what the DAP already had had before, too).
(The Communists didn't want such qua dogma, but focused on Marxism and the USSR.)
okie wrote:If you can't defend your opinion with any substance, then quit bothering me here. This forum is about posting evidence once in a while at least.
I still think that I've posted more substance on your questions and about this topic than you have, okie.
I admit that I didn't post "evidence", e.g. primary sources.
However, I've scanned most ('most', I'm not sure of there are more) published speeches from Hitler and couldn't find the sentences you used.
Would you mind giving the 'evidence' for it, e.g. place and date, published where and by whom etc?
This forum is about evidence ... Thank you.
By: Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. - More about My Work - HERE!
I am NOT a mental health professional - read the DISCLAIMER - click HERE!!!
okie, Dr Vaknin is like you! He's not a health professional, ...
What is a personality disorder?
[from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, 1994, commonly referred to as DSM-IV, of the American Psychiatric Association. European countries use the diagnostic criteria of the World Health Organization.]
An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectation of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to distress or impairment.
Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right.[9] The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. The Nazi Party presented its program in the 25 point National Socialist Program in 1920. Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, racism, collectivism,[10][11] eugenics, antisemitism, anti-communism, totalitarianism and opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism.[11][12][13]
Hitler personally claimed he was fighting against Jewish Marxism.
...
In Hitler's mind, Communism is the primary enemy of Germany:
“ In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated. ”
" Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
“ In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms. ”
" Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
“ In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory. ”
" Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
...
Because of these views, leftist political dissidents were the first victims to be targeted by the Nazi regime...
...
Although Nazism experimented with many different ideas, the core values of Hitler and most of his popular base are seen by some as strongly Conservative and have been usually defined as reactionary. Hitler and the Nazis supported a certain subset of traditional values:
* Antifeminism. The role of women in Nazi Germany was still defined with the traditional formula Kinder, Küche, Kirche (children, kitchen, church). In a 1934 speech, Hitler stated that "the slogan 'Emancipation of women' was invented by Jewish intellectuals and its content was formed by the same spirit. In the really good times of German life the German woman had no need to emancipate herself. She possessed exactly what nature had necessarily given her to administer and preserve; just as the man in his good times had no need to fear that he would be ousted from his position in relation to the woman. In fact the woman was least likely to challenge his position. Only when he was not absolutely certain in his knowledge of his task did the eternal instinct of self and race-preservation begin to rebel in women. There then grew from this rebellion a state of affairs which was unnatural and which lasted until both sexes returned to the respective spheres which an eternally wise providence had preordained for them. If the man's world is said to be the State, his struggle, his readiness to devote his powers to the service of the community, then it may perhaps be said that the woman's is a smaller world. For her world is her husband, her family, her children, and her home.".[5]
* Strong social and familiar order, with a rigid hierarchization of all aspects of life supported by harsh discipline and a militaristic point of view.
* Extreme homophobia leading to the extermination of homosexuals.
* Persecution of so-called degenerate art.
* Strong rejection of youth sex, prostitution, pornography and "sexual vice". Smoking, drinking and use of cosmetics were discouraged.
* Anti-intellectualism.[6]
...
(I had this same discussion elsewhere regarding Bush, by the way, and came to the same conclusion.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
Quote:Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right.[9] The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. The Nazi Party presented its program in the 25 point National Socialist Program in 1920. Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, racism, collectivism,[10][11] eugenics, antisemitism, anti-communism, totalitarianism and opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism.[11][12][13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_political_beliefs
Quote:Hitler personally claimed he was fighting against Jewish Marxism.
...
In Hitler's mind, Communism is the primary enemy of Germany:
“ In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated. ”
" Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
“ In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms. ”
" Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
“ In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory. ”
" Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
...
Because of these views, leftist political dissidents were the first victims to be targeted by the Nazi regime...
...
Although Nazism experimented with many different ideas, the core values of Hitler and most of his popular base are seen by some as strongly Conservative and have been usually defined as reactionary. Hitler and the Nazis supported a certain subset of traditional values:
* Antifeminism. The role of women in Nazi Germany was still defined with the traditional formula Kinder, Küche, Kirche (children, kitchen, church). In a 1934 speech, Hitler stated that "the slogan 'Emancipation of women' was invented by Jewish intellectuals and its content was formed by the same spirit. In the really good times of German life the German woman had no need to emancipate herself. She possessed exactly what nature had necessarily given her to administer and preserve; just as the man in his good times had no need to fear that he would be ousted from his position in relation to the woman. In fact the woman was least likely to challenge his position. Only when he was not absolutely certain in his knowledge of his task did the eternal instinct of self and race-preservation begin to rebel in women. There then grew from this rebellion a state of affairs which was unnatural and which lasted until both sexes returned to the respective spheres which an eternally wise providence had preordained for them. If the man's world is said to be the State, his struggle, his readiness to devote his powers to the service of the community, then it may perhaps be said that the woman's is a smaller world. For her world is her husband, her family, her children, and her home.".[5]
* Strong social and familiar order, with a rigid hierarchization of all aspects of life supported by harsh discipline and a militaristic point of view.
* Extreme homophobia leading to the extermination of homosexuals.
* Persecution of so-called degenerate art.
* Strong rejection of youth sex, prostitution, pornography and "sexual vice". Smoking, drinking and use of cosmetics were discouraged.
* Anti-intellectualism.[6]
...
Look at that. You and Hitler have something in common.
Anti-parliamentarism, collectivism, eugenics, and totalitarianism are leftist. Opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism, these terms had different meanings in Europe, drewdad, and are not indicators of a conservative ideology I do not believe. Racism and antisemitism, it can be argued that these traits are more common on the left side of the political spectrum, particularly antisemitism. All you have to do is listen to the Reverend Wright to see what he thinks of Jews, and he is no conservative, that is for certain.
Perhaps herein lies the problem. Your spectrum of left to right goes from communist to what perhaps may be a form of socialism. What I think you are failing to accept is that the right end of the spectrum is still very much leftward in context with what we see as left and right here in the United States. You can speak in relative terms but it doesn't prove much, you have to actually examine the policies of the Nazi Party, which I have done, and have challenged you to do, but as yet you have not met the challenge.
Again, I think you are lost in the maze of German politics and traditional thinking. And I don't think you understand what conservative or right wing means in context with today's standards here in the United States. As I have stated many times, the best way to resolve this is to go to the Nazi Party 25 points and evaluate those points in terms of where the reside on the left right spectrum. I have done this, and I think it clearly shows Hitler was a leftist. I challenge you to try to do this to prove your beliefs. After all, if your beliefs are valid, it should be a piece of cake for you. And if you don't like the Nazi 25 points, perhaps we can dissect Mein Kampf, after all what would be closer to Hitler's beliefs than that. I have read much of that, and I sure don't see much conservative or right wing philosophy in there.
I already provided the source, which was a book. I cannot vouch that everything in that book is correct, so I'm with you on the problem of verifying what Hitler said. But if you wish to throw it out, I think there is plenty of other evidence without it anyway, and as I said, the quote does not seem to be out of character for Hitler, so I don't think you can make the case that it is opposite of his beliefs.
As I said in the above, go to the Nazi 25 points, or if you prefer Mein Kampf, use that to prove your belief, but at least provide some evidence instead of some convoluted argument that xyz party was to the left of abc party, therefore, ....... and that you wrote a paper on it when you were in college, and therefore...... I think you can do better than that.
Anti-parliamentarism, collectivism, eugenics, and totalitarianism are leftist.
I left the thread for a while and forgot my earlier conclusion that Okie's simply trolling, here.
Back to your regularly-scheduled right-wing ideological circular reasoning.
How does one "troll" on a thread that one started?
Nobody twists anybody's arm to contribute to a thread. Most of us simply pass by threads that are not interesting to us. This must be an interesting topic to many for it to generate as many posts as it has generated.
The thread starter must be really hitting some nerves too as the posts become more and more personally hostile toward him.
