Supererogatory act

Momma Angel wrote:

I spent some time in Washington, D.C. on a trip once. I took a bus tour of the city. The bus driver actually said, "Oh, don't pay any attention to those people sleeping on those grates. They want to be there." I lost it! No one wants to be homeless and out in the cold. Some may not want to put forth the effort to do what it takes to change the situation but no one wants to be homeless.

I just recently finished about 3 monhts work of research concerning homeless people and what I call 'freeloaders'.

The thing that I discovered is that there are many people who are homeless and on the side of the street that really do choose to be there. You would be surprised how many shelters are available.

Most of the people you see on the grates aren't homeless at all, some of them do that as their job. You may ask, "why then are they doing a job that sucks so bad and that makes so little?"

I'm asking that same question, but the truth is these people (excluding those who are mentally ill and truly homeless) choose to be there. Your bus driver was very much correct.

The opportunities for them are there, they choose not to see them. They may be harder to find, it may be more difficult to overcome thier adversity, but it's gotta start somewhere.

Welfare is nothing more than a crutch in the U.S. A tool used by politicians to win votes. Promise them more welfare and they'll vote for you. The welfare you gave them encourages them to sit back and collect welfare instead of getting a real job.

Let's talk about the poverish inner cities.

They're a mess because of the standard of living people accept. I see 15 terrible looking houses followed by one that is obviously being kept up. Now do you think the person in the house that is kept up is going to be there in 5 years? I bet not. I bet they're trying to get out of there as soon as possible....Meanwhile these people surrounding them won't even paint a fence, they won't pull a weed, they won't do anything to bring up their standard of living. And the reason seems simple to me, THEY ACCEPT THE LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING. It's good enough for them. So why try so hard to bring someone out of a place they're content in?

It's useless, it's a waste of time, and it makes me sick.

EDIT: When I refer to homeless people, I am excluding people who have recently been rendered homeless due to something like Katrina, a house fire, or any other disaster of the sort.

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CarbonSystem wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

I spent some time in Washington, D.C. on a trip once. I took a bus tour of the city. The bus driver actually said, "Oh, don't pay any attention to those people sleeping on those grates. They want to be there." I lost it! No one wants to be homeless and out in the cold. Some may not want to put forth the effort to do what it takes to change the situation but no one wants to be homeless.

I just recently finished about 3 monhts work of research concerning homeless people and what I call 'freeloaders'.

The thing that I discovered is that there are many people who are homeless and on the side of the street that really do choose to be there. You would be surprised how many shelters are available.

Most of the people you see on the grates aren't homeless at all, some of them do that as their job. You may ask, "why then are they doing a job that sucks so bad and that makes so little?"

I'm asking that same question, but the truth is these people (excluding those who are mentally ill and truly homeless) choose to be there. Your bus driver was very much correct.

The opportunities for them are there, they choose not to see them. They may be harder to find, it may be more difficult to overcome thier adversity, but it's gotta start somewhere.

Welfare is nothing more than a crutch in the U.S. A tool used by politicians to win votes. Promise them more welfare and they'll vote for you. The welfare you gave them encourages them to sit back and collect welfare instead of getting a real job.

Let's talk about the poverish inner cities.

They're a mess because of the standard of living people accept. I see 15 terrible looking houses followed by one that is obviously being kept up. Now do you think the person in the house that is kept up is going to be there in 5 years? I bet not. I bet they're trying to get out of there as soon as possible....Meanwhile these people surrounding them won't even paint a fence, they won't pull a weed, they won't do anything to bring up their standard of living. And the reason seems simple to me, THEY ACCEPT THE LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING. It's good enough for them. So why try so hard to bring someone out of a place they're content in?

It's useless, it's a waste of time, and it makes me sick.

EDIT: When I refer to homeless people, I am excluding people who have recently been rendered homeless due to something like Katrina, a house fire, or any other disaster of the sort.

I am not talking about the ones that choose to be there. What about the ones that don't? What about the ones that are mentally ill?

If they choose to be there, fine, have at it. But, if they are mentally ill or for some reason incapable of making this choice, do we just leave them there and assume they want to do nothing to better themselves

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Momma Angel wrote:

I am not talking about the ones that choose to be there. What about the ones that don't? What about the ones that are mentally ill?

If they choose to be there, fine, have at it. But, if they are mentally ill or for some reason incapable of making this choice, do we just leave them there and assume they want to do nothing to better themselves

Those who can't help themselves should get some help, but at what point does it have 0 effectivity?

Have at it? I hope by that you mean eliminate the bleeding hearts for those taking advantage of the govn't. I hope you didn't mean let it be, because money is being wasted on them, which could be spent on useful things.

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What I mean is, if they choose that way of life, fine, don't expect me to pay for it.

If they need help, want help, and are willing to do something about their life situation, I'm there. I will do whatever I can to help.

Believe me, here in Louisiana, there is some major uproar going on about the welfare system. Too many deliberately having more children just to get bigger checks and walking around wearing gold chains and driving fancy cars.

Not everyone on welfare is like that. I say we do something about those that are. If we continue to just hand it out to those that just take it, we share in that fault.

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the estimate for the number of homeless that are children is 40%

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And since when is it our responsibility to take care of those children? Either we leave it up to the parent, or we scoop them up into a foster home.

How's that sound?

I'm on the same page as you Momma Angel. I think the system is just too flawed with the politics involved to work as it is.

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Cool! :wink:

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dys, you have any thoughts you could share about this matter? I know you do. I'd be really interested to hear them. I don't have the desire to debate, I just feel you have something I would find interesting to hear.

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Quote:

The thing that I discovered is that there are many people who are homeless and on the side of the street that really do choose to be there. You would be surprised how many shelters are available.

Are you serious? There was a homeless person here that died because of the cold condition in the street. There were homeless people living in abandoned buildings that were forced to get out. Don't tell me that they don't want any shelters. Back up your claims.

Quote:

Meanwhile these people surrounding them won't even paint a fence, they won't pull a weed, they won't do anything to bring up their standard of living. And the reason seems simple to me, THEY ACCEPT THE LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING.

What if they can't? What if they are addicted to drugs, what if they don't have or they don't know of any opportunities? How would you know that they "accept the lower standard of living?" You don't. All mere speculations and oversimplifications of the complexity of the human condition.

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So why try so hard to bring someone out of a place they're content in?

Do you know that they are really content or are you just saying that to make your argument seem more convincing?

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The welfare you gave them encourages them to sit back and collect welfare instead of getting a real job.

Really? Do you have anything to back up this claim? From what I find, many employers aren't too keen on employing homeless people.

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Ray wrote:

Quote:
The thing that I discovered is that there are many people who are homeless and on the side of the street that really do choose to be there. You would be surprised how many shelters are available.

Are you serious? There was a homeless person here that died because of the cold condition in the street. There were homeless people living in abandoned buildings that were forced to get out. Don't tell me that they don't want any shelters. Back up your claims.

Quote:
Meanwhile these people surrounding them won't even paint a fence, they won't pull a weed, they won't do anything to bring up their standard of living. And the reason seems simple to me, THEY ACCEPT THE LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING.

What if they can't? What if they are addicted to drugs, what if they don't have or they don't know of any opportunities? How would you know that they "accept the lower standard of living?" You don't. All mere speculations and oversimplifications of the complexity of the human condition.

Quote:
So why try so hard to bring someone out of a place they're content in?

Do you know that they are really content or are you just saying that to make your argument seem more convincing?

Quote:
The welfare you gave them encourages them to sit back and collect welfare instead of getting a real job.

Really? Do you have anything to back up this claim? From what I find, many employers aren't too keen on employing homeless people.

I'll answer in order:

Yes I'm very serious. Are you telling me that one homeless person dying is evidence enough? Your speculations are as obvious as mine.

What if they can't because of drugs? That is pathetic. If someone gets addicted to drugs, it is not the rest of society's job to try and make them clean. That is thier fault. Maybe you are of the belief that society breeds drug addicts or something, I don't know, I just know that saying drug addiction is an excuse for not having a standard of living is bull. I would say that the terrible conditions that ARE SO COMMON in inner cities are evidence enough. More evidence are the few homes that aren't complete crap. Are you telling me the people who keep up their homes just got lucky? To me it's obvious, but maybe your view doesn't reach quite as far or in the same direction as mine.

I believe you addressed the content question in the previous question, regarding the accepting of thier situation. Of course I'm that information to make my argument more convincing. Why wouldn't I use knowledge that I've gained in order to make a more convincing case, isn't that what debate is about, convincing, conveyeing ideas in the strongest way possible?

As for the backing up of a claim that welfare just encourages them to stay in poverty I believe someone who lives in Louisiana touched on thier personal experiences. Also let's try no to ignore the fact that Democrat's use welfare as a tool to get votes from inner city citizens. The people see that they're getting this money if they vote for him, so the democrat gets the vote. They then continue to vote for democrats who are giving them money, and they feel that if they're getting all of this help now, why get out of the situation. Don't you think a more obvious effort could be seen? As of right now the effort I see is minimal.

Once again, to you they may be a product of what society makes them, while to me they're a product of thier determination and standard of living.

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First of all, sorry for the tone of my last post.

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Yes I'm very serious. Are you telling me that one homeless person dying is evidence enough? Your speculations are as obvious as mine.

It is a counterexample of your claim. You claimed that homeless people want to be homeless. I just provided a case where that claim is incorrect.

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What if they can't because of drugs? That is pathetic. If someone gets addicted to drugs, it is not the rest of society's job to try and make them clean. That is thier fault. Maybe you are of the belief that society breeds drug addicts or something, I don't know, I just know that saying drug addiction is an excuse for not having a standard of living is bull. I would say that the terrible conditions that ARE SO COMMON in inner cities are evidence enough. More evidence are the few homes that aren't complete crap. Are you telling me the people who keep up their homes just got lucky? To me it's obvious, but maybe your view doesn't reach quite as far or in the same direction as mine.

It is sad. It is not society's responsibility to force them to go clean, but it is society's responsibility to provide an opportunity for help.

The people who keep up their homes are working hard, but they are also living in the right circumstances. It is, I think, too simplistic to think that a person may be homeless just because they are content with being homeless.

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As for the backing up of a claim that welfare just encourages them to stay in poverty I believe someone who lives in Louisiana touched on thier personal experiences. Also let's try no to ignore the fact that Democrat's use welfare as a tool to get votes from inner city citizens. The people see that they're getting this money if they vote for him, so the democrat gets the vote. They then continue to vote for democrats who are giving them money, and they feel that if they're getting all of this help now, why get out of the situation. Don't you think a more obvious effort could be seen? As of right now the effort I see is minimal.

Yes, let's have someone from Louisiana tell us of their personal experiences.

Maybe politicians are going too far with their promises, but let's leave the absurdness of politics for a second and focus on the term welfare.
Welfare is simply economic assistance given to those in need. It may be short term reliefs, or it may be providing homeless shelters, health assistance, or job opportunities. The effectiveness of a welfare system may depend on what kind of welfare and how much of a certain kind is given.

Do I think that a more obvious effort could be seen? I don't know, but I will not jump to the conclusion that they are not trying to get out of it and I will not so easily blame them solely.

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Uh, I'm from Louisiana. You mean me? I am assuming you might be?

Anyway, oh yeah. Right now, plenty of people up in arms about those having more children just to get a bigger welfare check. They have the children at the Charity Hospitals and have free medical care the whole time. They wear gold chains around their neck, wear designer clothes, and drive fancy cars. I kid you not! And when using their food stamps they buy the expensive brand name items. The other people in the checkout line get angry because they are out there working to support their family and have to watch every penny and have to buy the generic brands. Not that there is anything wrong with generic brands. Personally, I am not paying someone for their packaging. Now, I don't have a problem with people wanting the better things in life. None at all. But, I'm not paying for them when I can't even afford this luxury myself! Many here believe the welfare system is twisted and it's becoming a big problem. Now, not everyone on welfare in Louisiana does this. There happens to be a rather large amount of it though and people are becoming very angry about it.

It seems that since Katrina, it has made people realize just how important it is for those that want help to do something to help themselves.

Speaking for myself, I have no problem helping anyone that wants to help themself. No problem whatsoever. But, I have had people actually tell me to my face, "If having babies will get me a bigger welfare check, why shouldn't I have more babies?"

I was speechless.

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Today's welfare system is just the latest itteration of "Bread and Circuses" - the Plebs are always with us, we gotta look after them some lest they become inconveniently fractious.

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Re: Supererogatory act

Ray wrote:

How much ought we to help the poor?

Until they don't exist anymore. Very Happy

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Re: Supererogatory act

queen annie wrote:

Ray wrote:
How much ought we to help the poor?

Until they don't exist anymore.

Do away with them? Hmmmm ... you think that's really the way to go?

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If the argument is polarized in such black and white terms i.e. "How much ought we to help the poor" then an individual's circumstances are overlooked. There ought to be a simple, direct way to apply for and hence justify the need for social assistance, and I believe given today's level of technology, that such as system could exist instead of this one size fits all polarization.

If/when robotics really takes hold, there is going to be a massive shift in the socio-economic structure such that the need for the present work schedules and conditions will be perceived as antiquated, in the same way we now look back to the beginnings of the industrial revolution and think to ourselves: I could never work all day in the cotton mills!

A modest and entertaining thought experiment would be to imagine that the Chinese are in fact robots; look what they have been able to generate in their short time as part of the modern economic landscape.

This of course ties in with the fears that the US is headed for an economic disaster with all the wealth at the top of the food chain and a massive welfare state below, subsidized by the more productive countries and corporate taxes.

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Quote:

Anyway, oh yeah. Right now, plenty of people up in arms about those having more children just to get a bigger welfare check. They have the children at the Charity Hospitals and have free medical care the whole time. They wear gold chains around their neck, wear designer clothes, and drive fancy cars. I kid you not! And when using their food stamps they buy the expensive brand name items. The other people in the checkout line get angry because they are out there working to support their family and have to watch every penny and have to buy the generic brands. Not that there is anything wrong with generic brands. Personally, I am not paying someone for their packaging. Now, I don't have a problem with people wanting the better things in life. None at all. But, I'm not paying for them when I can't even afford this luxury myself! Many here believe the welfare system is twisted and it's becoming a big problem. Now, not everyone on welfare in Louisiana does this. There happens to be a rather large amount of it though and people are becoming very angry about it.

I can see how Carbonsystem was so ticked off. What's with whe welfare for having more child thing? They used to have that in Quebec to encourage growth.

I don't understand how the welfare system in Louisiana works, so I'm not going to assume too much.

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Ray wrote:

Quote:
Anyway, oh yeah. Right now, plenty of people up in arms about those having more children just to get a bigger welfare check. They have the children at the Charity Hospitals and have free medical care the whole time. They wear gold chains around their neck, wear designer clothes, and drive fancy cars. I kid you not! And when using their food stamps they buy the expensive brand name items. The other people in the checkout line get angry because they are out there working to support their family and have to watch every penny and have to buy the generic brands. Not that there is anything wrong with generic brands. Personally, I am not paying someone for their packaging. Now, I don't have a problem with people wanting the better things in life. None at all. But, I'm not paying for them when I can't even afford this luxury myself! Many here believe the welfare system is twisted and it's becoming a big problem. Now, not everyone on welfare in Louisiana does this. There happens to be a rather large amount of it though and people are becoming very angry about it.

I can see how Carbonsystem was so ticked off. What's with whe welfare for having more child thing? They used to have that in Quebec to encourage growth.

I don't understand how the welfare system in Louisiana works, so I'm not going to assume too much.

Ray,

Well, I am not sure what Cabonsystem was ticked off about. I musta missed something again.

He said something about maybe someone in Louisiana could say something about it and I did. We don't need growth encouraged here! LOL. We got plenty of people. So, no worries we are not in short supply.

We were talking about the people that abuse the welfare system. I think if we could sift the abusers from the system, we'd probably have less homeless, poor, etc.

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Supererogatory act

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