Supererogatory act

"How much ought we to help the poor? "

it depends on what you want to help them with....

Help them get out of poverty.

Why?

The answer is liberty and opportunity - thats all that can be provided. More can be done to that end, of course, but much has been accomplished and much is being done. Handouts do nothing but enable and perpetuate poverty.

I agree, Timber. I am a big believer in the old saying,

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day,
Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime".

The problem with our society is the perception that handouts are an "entitlement", a word that I despise. As Timber so nicely put it, each person is given liberty and the opportunity to make something of their lives.

I have no problem with helping people out in a pinch.................like the victims of Katrina. I also have no problem with helping the truly disabled, who cannot fend for themselves. I DO have a problem with creating generations of individuals who believe that they are entitled to have their needs met by the government.

I couldn't have said it better, Phoenix.

One dillemma I do have, though, is deciding what to think about impoverished families who only get welfare because they have children. While I believe that these families should be given the best chance to raise their children in a supportive environment, I still have doubts about those that cheat the system and become their own baby farm just to pull in more money from the government.

Keep fish away from a poor man and see how he gets along.

In order for one to "pull himself up by his own boot straps" he must have boots.

Yeah, but why do I have to buy the boots???

well phoenix, I suppose the same argument could be, "I am old and retired, why should I pay school taxes" and the answer is "because it's in societies best interest and you are a member of society.

dys- I disagree- School taxes are paid for the good of all of society. I don't think that it matters if you have kids or not. That is quite different from taking money away from families who have worked hard for it, and giving it to people who don't.

I think that there is a place for charity, but that belongs in the non-profit and private sector. IMO, it is appropriate for government to get involved in the cases that I have mentioned; catastrophes, the severely disabled, and possibly as a stop-gap measure in a pinch.

Phoenix, I'm guessing that as I had a careeer in social work, I have a biased view of the nature of society and doors that are closed to persons attempting to become self-suficient.

dys- Having been in the mental health business, which is allied with social services, I have observed how the government puts all sorts of roadblocks for people attempting to become self-sufficient. I really don't think that the bureaucrats who run the government, have any conception of what it means to give a person a leg up, and then letting him carry on by himself.

There is just too much pork, too much politics, and not enough real insight as to how to assist people in getting ahead in these government programs. The country would be a better place if the government got out of the social services business.

I think that my background in rehabilitation counselling accounts for some of the differences in our orientation.

I can understand both Phoenix's and dys' side of this. There are many here in Louisiana (just a fact) that have children just to get a bigger welfare check and do nothing to try to help themselves.

Then, there are those that do everything they can and take advantage of every opportunity to better their situation. And, unfortunately, a lot of doors are shut for many of these. Homelessness is not just not having a home. It's not having an address to put on a job application. It's not having a phone number for anyone to call you and tell you that you got an interview or a job.

Homelessness in the United States (in particular because I live here) is unacceptable to me. Not one citizen of the United States should be without a home.

I spent some time in Washington, D.C. on a trip once. I took a bus tour of the city. The bus driver actually said, "Oh, don't pay any attention to those people sleeping on those grates. They want to be there." I lost it! No one wants to be homeless and out in the cold. Some may not want to put forth the effort to do what it takes to change the situation but no one wants to be homeless.

I guess we just need a better system. One that really looks at the truth of our Welfare System. I don't have a problem at all with anyone receiving welfare if they need it. It's my pleasure to help those. But for the ones that just take advantage I think there needs to be some kind of responsibility being placed on them. Be on welfare, fine. Let learning a trade be part of that so you can eventually get yourself a job that can help you be a productive member of society.

Momma- I disagree. Of course most people don't want to be homeless. On the other hand, a certain percentage of the folks who live out on the street have severe mental health problems. They are much more comfortable in a place where they are not faced with a structure with which they feel threatened.

Momma- And who is supposed to supply that home?

Phoenix,

Hmmm. Well, I can agree to some extent here. Yes, not having that structure might be a comfort for some. Washington, D.C. has some of the most fabulous homeless shelters for the mentally ill. I visited a few when I was there.

Unfortunately, when the mentally ill are actually in the throes of their illness, reality to them is something for others that is so hard to understand. And, it's a very fine line we walk when we try to help them with medications. Since you have worked in mental health, you know that quite often one of the symptoms of their mental illness is medication is totally unnecessary because they believe they are perfectly fine and we know that if they get the medicine they will mostly likely have a clearer mind.

I was working in mental health at the time I went to D.C. As much as I enjoyed the work, the emotional cost was great. Seeing someone on medication and pretty close to what others would term as normal was a good thing. But, when they would stop their medication and become someone else, was heartbreaking.

Who should supply those homes? To be quite honest with you, I think people like Donald Trump could do more. I mean, would it really put a dent in his wallet to build a housing community (if he hasn't already, I don't know, just using him as an example) and giving homes to people? Sure, it might sound like I think he should be punished (?) for having so much money but I don't mean that. He has I am sure more than enough to take care of a great many homeless and still be a millionaire, billionaire, whichever he is.

Also, supplying someone with a home doesn't have to mean supplying it at no cost. What about being on welfare for a specific time and during that time learning a trade? Once you learned that trade and went to work, why not make homes available on a rent to own basis? That gives a person the option to either obtain their own home or just pay rent.

Momma- I completely disagree with your first idea, and agree with your second. IMO, people who have "made it" should not be obliged to supply goods and services to those who have not. It is up to each individual as to how charitible he wants to be, and in which charity, if any, he wants to put his money.

As far as your second idea, Habitat for Humanity, which happens to be a non-profit, Christian organization does just as you have stated. Volunteers work with recipients of the housing.

http://www.habitat.org/default2.aspx

I think that it is a wonderful organization. In addition to supplying housing, it gives the people receiving the housing an emotional stake in their keeping up their home, which pure handouts would never accomplish.

MA, i used to donate money to Habitat for Humanity. (i didn't this year because i had huge expenses, but i'm planning on doing it again in the new year.) Habitat provides houses for people who rent, i think, so it's not the same as housing the homeless. then there's that show, Extreme Home Makeover--and i don't watch regularly, so i'm not positive--but even they don't work with the homeless. it's as if the homeless are invisible.