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Interbreeding Questions...

 
 
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:51 am
Ever wonder where democrats come from.....

In order to be descended from something via anything resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbred with the something. The total lack of any evidence of interbreeding between modern humans and neanderthals used to be viewed as an anomaly, before the neanderthal DNA studies explained it (and ruled the neanderthal out as a plausible human ancestor). Apparently, 70 or 80 years ago, this kind of stuff was not terribly well understood. The following story was linked from DrudgeReport yesterday...


http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005

Stalin's half-man, half-ape super-warriors
CHRIS STEPHEN AND ALLAN HALL

THE Soviet dictator Josef Stalin ordered the creation of Planet of the Apes-style warriors by crossing humans with apes, according to recently uncovered secret documents.

Moscow archives show that in the mid-1920s Russia's top animal breeding scientist, Ilya Ivanov, was ordered to turn his skills from horse and animal work to the quest for a super-warrior.

According to Moscow newspapers, Stalin told the scientist: "I want a new invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about the quality of food they eat."

In 1926 the Politburo in Moscow passed the request to the Academy of Science with the order to build a "living war machine". The order came at a time when the Soviet Union was embarked on a crusade to turn the world upside down, with social engineering seen as a partner to industrialisation: new cities, architecture, and a new egalitarian society were being created.

The Soviet authorities were struggling to rebuild the Red Army after bruising wars.

And there was intense pressure to find a new labour force, particularly one that would not complain, with Russia about to embark on its first Five-Year Plan for fast-track industrialisation.

Mr Ivanov was highly regarded. He had established his reputation under the Tsar when in 1901 he established the world's first centre for the artificial insemination of racehorses.

Mr Ivanov's ideas were music to the ears of Soviet planners and in 1926 he was dispatched to West Africa with $200,000 to conduct his first experiment in impregnating chimpanzees.

Meanwhile, a centre for the experiments was set up in Georgia - Stalin's birthplace - for the apes to be raised.

Mr Ivanov's experiments, unsurprisingly from what we now know, were a total failure. He returned to the Soviet Union, only to see experiments in Georgia to use monkey sperm in human volunteers similarly fail.

A final attempt to persuade a Cuban heiress to lend some of her monkeys for further experiments reached American ears, with the New York Times reporting on the story, and she dropped the idea amid the uproar.

Mr Ivanov was now in disgrace. His were not the only experiments going wrong: the plan to collectivise farms ended in the 1932 famine in which at least four million died.

For his expensive failure, he was sentenced to five years' jail, which was later commuted to five years' exile in the Central Asian republic of Kazakhstan in 1931. A year later he died, reportedly after falling sick while standing on a freezing railway platform.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:29 am
Re: Interbreeding Questions...
gungasnake wrote:


In order to be descended from something via anything resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbred with the something. The total lack of any evidence of interbreeding between modern humans and neanderthals used to be viewed as an anomaly.








Oh....ooby doo, I wanna be like you-oo-oo....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/lordellpus/bush_monkey.jpg
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:38 am
Brilliant.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:40 am
Quote:
In order to be descended from something via anything resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbred with the something.

Seriously, gunga?






No.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 06:13 am
Boy, some class acts on the far extreme tippy toe right.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 06:57 am
echi wrote:
Quote:
In order to be descended from something via anything resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbred with the something.

Seriously, gunga?

.


Seriously. The problem for evolosers is sufficiently simple: The DNA studies ruled the neanderthal out as a plausible ancestor for modern man and all other hominids are much further removed from us THAN the neanderthal. They'd need some new hominid closer to us in both time and morphology than the neanderthal and, if such a creature had ever lived, its works and remains would be all over the map and very easy to find.

Basically, there is no plausible ancestor for modern man on the planet. If modern man evolved, he did so on some planet other than this one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:19 am
In your case that claim seems very plausible . . .
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:25 pm
gungasnake wrote:
echi wrote:
Quote:
In order to be descended from something via anything resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbred with the something.

Seriously, gunga?

.


Seriously. The problem for evolosers is sufficiently simple: The DNA studies ruled the neanderthal out as a plausible ancestor for modern man and all other hominids are much further removed from us THAN the neanderthal. They'd need some new hominid closer to us in both time and morphology than the neanderthal and, if such a creature had ever lived, its works and remains would be all over the map and very easy to find.

Basically, there is no plausible ancestor for modern man on the planet. If modern man evolved, he did so on some planet other than this one.


gunga--

No one is claiming that humans evolved from neanderthals. Human and neanderthal existence overlapped. A minority think there may have been some interbreeding, but that's the extent of that.
Evolution is a very slow, gradual process. It does not result from bears "gettin' busy" with kangaroos.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:28 pm
<covers eyes, begins reciting>

"Please don't start an evolution discussion with Gunga. Please don't start an evolution discussion with Gunga...."
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:44 pm
< pulls up chair and waits for Farmerman to arrive >
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:53 pm
echi wrote:
It does not result from bears "gettin' busy" with kangaroos.


This is one of the best lines posted here in ages . . . sadly, neither its intellectual significance nor its wry humor is likely to sink in with Gunga Din . . .

Though I've belted you and flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better unevolved man than I am, Gunga Din!


With no apology to Rudyard Kipling--he was a hack, anyway . . .
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:00 pm
Sorry we got off on the wrong foot, Setanta.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:11 pm
No problem, Boss . . . i like readin' your posts, and i bear no grudges . . . as well, i begrudge no bears . . .
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 07:21 pm
gunga is the last guy since Teilhard who believes that Neanderthals were a direct line to humans. Humans displaced neanderthals .

Neanderthals , Ergaster, erectus, and sapiens and s sapiens are all different species . Many of them lived at roughly the same times


Paleo evidence shows that sapiens just arrived in Europe as the neanderthals were disappearing.(stratigraphy you know, and palynology)



Svante Paabo and Mark Stonekring(go Lions) each did an mDNA count from the very individual that first defined Neanderthals. Their discovery was that , although Neanderthals are on the same hominid branch that contains us, their mDNA varies by as much as 20% , so they werent our direct ancestors . Later replication agrees. Paabo and watson later did a presentation showing that sapiens differed from neanderthals (DNA -wise) as does sapiens from chimpanzees.

The fact that the evolutionary "bush" has many branches is quite demonstrable with all sorts of evidence, no wiseass comments are needed from the ignorant. AND just because 2 species live at the same time, doesnt mean that one descended from the other. Thats not too hard to follow because in many threads gunga, youve brought it up.

If Gunga were to think this out further than he is able, he would realize that this thread of his argues against his own acceptance of "microevolution" (a condition that he has, in the past , had no argument with).
Hes all over the place depending on the day and season.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:11 pm
You still don't get it. The basic logic is that if we couldn't be descended from neanderthals, we couldn't be descended from any previous hominids either; they were all further removed from us than the neanderthal.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:58 pm
There is a mongoose somewhere.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:54 pm
gungasnake wrote:
still don't get it. The basic logic
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:30 am
gungasnake
Quote:
You still don't get it. The basic logic is that if we couldn't be descended from neanderthals, we couldn't be descended from any previous hominids either; they were all further removed from us than the neanderthal.
. Thus spake Zaragungasnake, so its gotta be true no? Did you understand that s sapiens and sapiens are also 2 populations? The record of mDNA from an immediate antecedent population has been discovered about 10 years ago? do you read anything besides Answers in Genesis?
0 Replies
 
vinsan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Dec, 2005 02:49 am
farmerman wrote:
gunga is the last guy since Teilhard who believes that Neanderthals were a direct line to humans. Humans displaced neanderthals .

Neanderthals , Ergaster, erectus, and sapiens and s sapiens are all different species . Many of them lived at roughly the same times


Paleo evidence shows that sapiens just arrived in Europe as the neanderthals were disappearing.(stratigraphy you know, and palynology)



Svante Paabo and Mark Stonekring(go Lions) each did an mDNA count from the very individual that first defined Neanderthals. Their discovery was that , although Neanderthals are on the same hominid branch that contains us, their mDNA varies by as much as 20% , so they werent our direct ancestors . Later replication agrees. Paabo and watson later did a presentation showing that sapiens differed from neanderthals (DNA -wise) as does sapiens from chimpanzees.

The fact that the evolutionary "bush" has many branches is quite demonstrable with all sorts of evidence, no wiseass comments are needed from the ignorant. AND just because 2 species live at the same time, doesnt mean that one descended from the other. Thats not too hard to follow because in many threads gunga, youve brought it up.

If Gunga were to think this out further than he is able, he would realize that this thread of his argues against his own acceptance of "microevolution" (a condition that he has, in the past , had no argument with).
Hes all over the place depending on the day and season.


Farmerman is very correct.

Did u see EVOLUTION the series on NatGeo, they showed this all so perfectly.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Dec, 2005 06:54 am
farmerman wrote:
gungasnake
Quote:
You still don't get it. The basic logic is that if we couldn't be descended from neanderthals, we couldn't be descended from any previous hominids either; they were all further removed from us than the neanderthal.
. Thus spake Zaragungasnake, so its gotta be true no? Did you understand that s sapiens and sapiens are also 2 populations? The record of mDNA from an immediate antecedent population has been discovered about 10 years ago? do you read anything besides Answers in Genesis?



Like I say, you still don't get it. I mean, we are not talking about anything complicated or anything like that.

The normal evoloser claim is that both modern man and the neanderthals are descended from some third party back around 200,000 years ago.

The obvious problem is that there is zero evidence of anything which WE could be descended from having been on the planet 200,000 years ago.
0 Replies
 
 

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