Free Will

Quote:

We do not seem to be able to function without the "as if" assumptions of linear time, causation and ego-selves, but that is not evidence for their ontological reality.

Exactly, and now we are getting somewhere. The key is in that we are irrevocably tied to our nature, or our functional mobility if you will.
Our perception isn't hard reality, it's our perception, and that IS an important distiction..but ultimately our perception is all we really have.

0 Replies

Is there a "hard reality"?

0 Replies

good question.
If there was, would we have the tools to experience it?
If not, how would we know it was there?

0 Replies

echi wrote:

Why would fiction seem more obvious than reality?

It seems so only from a specific, particular perspective. Thats the way religion works; without fantasy, it has nothing by which to claim authority nor from which to proceed.

0 Replies

timberlandko wrote:

echi wrote:
Why would fiction seem more obvious than reality?

It seems so only from a specific, particular perspective. Thats the way religion works; without fantasy, it has nothing by which to claim authority nor from which to proceed.

So do you think that our sense of "free will" is only a product of religion?

0 Replies

I think the idea was born of religion, an apealing candy to the slave minded. No, you aren't a slave..you have FREE WILL. now get back to work!

0 Replies

echi wrote:

So do you think that our sense of "free will" is only a product of religion?

I would say the intellectual tapdancing around the subject at question, as evidenced in this discussion, is born whole-cloth of religion.

0 Replies

Dude, I would love to reach that same conclusion. Do you know where I can find any kind of evidence? (Hope that isn't a dumb question.)

0 Replies

timberlandko wrote:

echi wrote:
So do you think that our sense of "free will" is only a product of religion?

I would say the intellectual tapdancing around the subject at question, as evidenced in this discussion, is born whole-cloth of religion.

timber--
What are you talking about? Who's tapdancing?

0 Replies

I would hesitate to locate the origin of both free-will (individual responsibility) and ego-self (soul) in Christianity. I believe both are seen in various forms and degrees throughout the world, even in societies having no knowledge of Christianity. I would not hesitate too long, however, to consider Christianity an institution that has exploited both self and free-will for its own ends.

0 Replies

echi wrote:

I get the impression that a lot of people believe that if everything is deterministic then we should be able to predict the future with absolute certainty. But this idea neglects the fact that we are part of the whole...we are not, and cannot be, outside looking in, taking measurements. We cannot completely separate ourselves from our subject.

Unity! Get it?

0 Replies

Doktor S wrote:

the idea that there would be a distinction between what IS and what ISN'T does in and of itself create 'bounds' now doesn't it?

Indeed. I can't reconcile the idea of 'boundless' with 'isn't.'

Boundless isn't even 'is.' There is no form of 'be' for boundless.

0 Replies

JLNobody wrote:

. . . We do not seem to be able to function without the "as if" assumptions of linear time, causation and ego-selves, but that is not evidence for their ontological reality.

Could it be that our understanding of reality, limited by perception, is incomplete?

We easily perceive and describe events in space and time. We are aware of other dimensions; but how do we articulate their nature?

0 Replies

echi wrote:

Dok--

Yeah, I know. I can get that far. But I can't think of a reason why we perceive it that way. Why has it been easier for us to accept "free will" over determinism? Why would fiction seem more obvious than reality?

I think it is surely a need of the ego--not an essential need, that is, not something conducive over the long haul, and definitely something to be passed on by at some point in the journey...

It is an idea of singularity that traps us in the dualistic mindset, and the idea of 'free will' seems inherent to the singular perception of self.

Of course, it is just a stage of expected development--the only negative aspect, at any stage and it's associated state of mind is the risk of confusing a wide spot in the road with an RV park. Or,
IOW, becoming mentally stagnated and unable to move on to the next level from fear there will be no comfort better than right now's comfort. But of course, it can only get better or we wouldn't be moving in the first place.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

Could it be that our understanding of reality, limited by perception, is incomplete?

I feel that is a certainty.

Quote:

We easily perceive and describe events in space and time. We are aware of other dimensions; but how do we articulate their nature?

I don't think we can--of course I don't know anything at all about it, but it seems to me that it is something that is only known by experience, which can only occur within that dimension. The rest is theory.

0 Replies

I skipped a lot of pages.

Quote:

Whatever is our true identity (maybe not worded correctly) is not the product of any effect. I don't argue our sense abilities (which IMO may include the recognition of reason or rationality), but I don't accept that we have the ability to make choices.

But then what is a "choice?" What exactly do you mean by the word choice, and what exactly do you mean by "I"?

I think we ultimately makes a choice. If "I" were to be my conscious self, then "I" am choosing what I am doing. If I did not choose what I am doing, then I am either sleep-walking (unconscious), almost unconscious, or under some sort of hypnosis.

0 Replies

Ray, is it not possible that most of our motivations reflect drives that operate unconsciously and that we formulate our "motivations" after the fact to give our expressed drives sense and justification? Do we have solid grounds for assuming that there such a thing as the ego's conscious will?
Frankly, I doubt the existence of will, free or determined.

0 Replies

What's all this stuff about the pro choice movement?

Just wondering.

0 Replies

Do you mean, to do with abortion? Or am I missing something altogether without a TV?

0 Replies

Well yeah; why do they call it pro choice?

I personally think we do have choices, or free will, within the boundaries of natural law, of course.

But you know what happens when I think. Laughing

0 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know