Free Will

Hephzibah, in answer to your statement: "...do you BELIEVE we have no control what so ever?"
In my everyday frame of reference I feel I have control. That is pretty much necessary for my existence within society. It is an iron-clad norm. At the same time, I am "logically" constrained to acknowledge the reality of "causation" (even though there are philosophical reasons--cf. Nietzsche and Hume)--to doubt its authority). But "mystically" I feel (indeed I "see" from a radically different frame of reference) that there is no "me" to be either in control or controlled. The problem is ultimately a false one, the reflection of a false dichtomy, of an illusory bifurcation between "me" and the "world".

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But JL it seems to me that to believe what you believe takes away all individuality, don't you think?

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hephzibah wrote:

Well my point is... you are taking the opposite side as me on this... so tell me your story. If we don't chose what happens, something determines it right? Have you ever thought about what it could be that determines what happens if it's not us making choices? I haven't thought too much about to be honest.

You confound me, darlin'.
I'm off to soak away my sorrows, but I'll be back later to tell ya'll what it's all about. (H'YA!)

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JL--what you said! Yes!

You really explained that well.

The thing about 'will' is that it is ego-driven. All the way. A decision is a solitary concern--even if affecting others, or shared, it is still something done on the absolute personal level.

As long as a soul requires a 'free will' environment, it shall have it. At some point in time, the need becomes obsolete. Because that which required
deterministic action has died. (the ego is dead long live the soul)

Laughing

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echi wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Well my point is... you are taking the opposite side as me on this... so tell me your story. If we don't chose what happens, something determines it right? Have you ever thought about what it could be that determines what happens if it's not us making choices? I haven't thought too much about to be honest.

You confound me, darlin'.
I'm off to soak away my sorrows, but I'll be back later to tell ya'll what it's all about. (H'YA!)

Yes! My work here is done... LOL

Kiddin Wink

Have fun, we'll catch ya later.

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Good point. But as I see it my individuality is a Cosmic phenomenon, not just a deviation from the social norm. To be my True Self (pardon the phrase), I am one with everyone and at the same time my spontaneous self, at least to the extent that I do not succumb to social pressures to be what is expected of me. But if I do or do not succumb I, paradoxically, remain my True (Cosmic) Self--which is what you are too (notice my use of upper and lower case "s" in the two uses of "self".
This perspective, for what it's worth, reflects fifty years of meditating, listening, reading, etc.. I hope I have not dug a hole and jumped in. I think not. But it is indefensible from the logician's frame of reference.

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hephzibah wrote:

But JL it seems to me that to believe what you believe takes away all individuality, don't you think?

If I may jump in--Heph, I thought the same thing, in previous times. It is hard to separate the 'ego' from 'self' from a mental perspective--that's essentially the basic nature of ego. It is a binding concept of self that must keep a certain illusion alive (for its own survival). That illusion is separateness, solitude of purpose and cause/effect.

It's not at all like losing who you are--it's not a blurred-out ruined boundary that is grey in every shade. It's more like a melting into technicolor--and it brings a blessed relief of legitimate freedom. In fact, it is signaled by the experience of one day looking in the mirror and truly seeing your self--not your ego, but your soul.

Emotions lose their power over your behavior, stress kind of de-particulates into thin air, and everything suddenly becomes transparent.

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JLNobody wrote:

Good point. But as I see it my individuality is a Cosmic phenomenon, not just a deviation from the social norm. To be my True Self (pardon the phrase), I am one with everyone and at the same time my spontaneous self, at least to the extent that I do not succumb to social pressures to be what is expected of me. But if I do or do not succumb I, paradoxically, remain my True (Cosmic) Self--which is what you are too (notice my use of upper and lower case "s" in the two uses of "self".
This perspective, for what it's worth, reflects fifty years of meditating, listening, reading, etc.. I hope I have not dug a hole and jumped in. I think not. But it is indefensible from the logician's frame of reference.

JL and Annie,

Hmmm... It seems to me that to identify a difference between your True self and your spontaneous self actually is still acknowledging you have an ego on some level, in that you do not succumb to social pressures. ie: a choice of your spontaneous self, which you have made separate from your True Self and say is not effected by the other.

It parallels what I believe however my words are different. I am me. I have a soul. This soul would be pretty much what you are calling your True Self. This soul is separate from my personality. The outward me and or the spontaneous self. Nothing can change my soul. That deep inward being that I am. However, I believe my soul is the one thing I have in common with all other people of mankind. Yet my personality is what gives me the outward expression of what is inward.

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Said without explanation:

I believe that God is the ultimate source of free will. As the creator of all natural and moral law and the source of all power, he has given us free will as his quintessential act of love.

That some have chosen to abuse this gift and rebel against God may have been anticipated as a possibility, but his selective application of foreknowledge allowed each individual the full reign of his choice.

And, since nothing is impossible for God, he has long ago set in place the remedy for all of the misery the rebellion has caused.

Hop on. Smile

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neo, Only religionist like yourself answer all questions with "god."

We are all limited in our reality from the constraints placed on us by our genes/biology and environment. Add to that the limitations of our language and our prison called earth. How much do we really know?

Our reality is a function of our biology; the chemical and electrical reactions in our brain. That we "perceive" some sensation phenomenon to be our reality is the big 64 thousand dollar question. How dependable is our imagery?

Most of us assume we have some reality from the simple fact that we are able to communicate with others which implies our existence. But "who am I?" Is the person called c.i. really who he seems to be? Are his conscious and unconscious mind one and the same? Our we just reactive to our environment rather than inactive because we happen to have some mobility?

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neologist wrote:

And, since nothing is impossible for God

Your (nothing is impossible) God only has one option in any situation, and that is the option that causes the most good. Therefore anything but that one option is impossible for God.

Also the existence of your (nothing is impossible) God denies human free will.

The problem here is that God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. His knowledge cannot be wrong. There is not a single event that he has not foreseen.

When God made the Universe he could see every possible result of what he was doing. Which means he could not create something without knowing what the results would be, and without knowing how it would be affected (and effect) the things around it.

Let's say that Heph has a choice that will save her life, to accept God or not to accept God and the final choice is to be made tomorrow. God knows already what choice she will make. God cannot be wrong therefore Heph cannot choose otherwise to what God has predicted.

When God created the chain of events that made Heph he also knew that he was making Heph's choice for her, and he knew how the various circumstances and character would make her choose either right or wrong.

Heph would go forth and make that very decision that God knew she would make, and by virtue that God knowingly set up all the factors that affected her decision, it was not up to Heph but to God to decide how Heph would fare.

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JLNobody wrote:

Echi, could it be that no-one is making those choices, that they are the expression of (competing) drives? I do not believe that there is anyONE who is choosing. I "transcend" the dilemna between free-will and determinism by rejecting the notion of the ego, of an entity within this person who chooses.

Okay. I get that.

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Hephzibah says:
" I have free will because I keep choosing to answer you... God didn't tell me to do it. Neither did the devil....No one is sitting whispering the correct answers in our ears. We make the decision based on how we think, feel, or perceive things. Do you know what I mean?"
I think I know--indeed we all know--what she means. I used to feel there was an "I" who made choices. Then for a while I assumed this was an illusion that the feeling of making free choices was "determined", i.e., the end of a causal chain of events.

Got it.

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NOW, I feel that my thoughts and deeds, just like my spontaneous and unconscious feelings, are not the property of an ego; they are literally Cosmic gestures.

"EEERRRRT!" (screeching tires)

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There is no "I", there is only the conditioned feeling of an "I" (ego or little "person" within me) or agent of "my" thoughts and deeds.

Okay, right.

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By "Cosmic gestures" I mean that everything I experience or do reflects all the natural forces that have converged to produce the experiences, desires, actions, etc. that seem to characterize "my" reality" right now.

All right, buddy, I'm gonna need you to step outta the car for me.

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Now this does not involve a metaphyscial determinism, an imprisonment of a "ME", since there is no "me" who exists as a separate entity within, and separate from, the Cosmos. Moreover, the Cosmos is COMPLETELY free in the sense that there is nothing external to it to constrain it (see how demanding is our grammar, not only do I have to use the subject, "I" to describe the predicate "do",...

That's funny...

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...I refer to the Cosmos as "it", without having any knowledge of its it-ness or boundaries). I (as well as you) AM the absolutely free Cosmos, therefore I am ULTIMATELY free. My existence is "determined", but it is determined by my true Self.

I can't for the life of me understand what you're sayin'. What do you mean your existence is determined by your true Self? Hit me with it, man.

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JLNobody wrote:

Echi, who is it that has no control?
Nietzsche--as well as zen Buddhism, as I understand it--argues that our actions reflect drives, and these drives are the "victors" in a complex of competing drives within us.

And the ego is also a result of these competing drives?

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"Control" is a very devious word to use when describing human action as it pertains to free will.

Experiments done at Stanford and Yale have shown that most anyone is capable of torture under the right circumstances/environment.

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Ok CI... so first off... most anyone... not everyone...

However I would like to know what does torture have to do with any of this? Yes, it's a form of control. Sadistic control if you ask me. Most normal functioning humans to not sit and plan how they are going to torture someone. Yes, maybe given the opportunity they would... hell... I don't know... Did I ask what torture has to do with this? LOL

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It goes to show that our environment has more influence on most people than people think.

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Ok, I'll buy that. Do we have a choice as to whether or not we are influenced?

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heph, That's a good question, but if we look at the experiments at Stanford and Yale, and the past history of Germany and Iraq under Saddam, we must wonder whether in similar circumstances whether we would have bowed to the leadership of Hitler and Saddam. I don't know how you would have reacted under similar circumstances, but I'm not so sure for myself.

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Chumly wrote:

Which means he could not create something without knowing what the results would be, and without knowing how it would be affected (and effect) the things around it.

Excellent point. Not from the stance of literally ruling our lives and assorted variant outcomes--but more like Geppetto and Pinocchio! Geppetto made Pinocchio--and so he understood the puppet-boy's nature.
I don't mean to say we are puppets--or liars, ha ha--but that the creator understands the creatures far better than the creatures understand themselves--even the wise hermit on the mountain knows less of his nature than God does.

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Let's say that Heph has a choice that will save her life, to accept God or not to accept God and the final choice is to be made tomorrow. God knows already what choice she will make. God cannot be wrong therefore Heph cannot choose otherwise to what God has predicted.

That whole 'accepting God for salvation' thing is totally misapplied and understood. This is an idea that humans came up with--not God (I'm speaking within the reference of the canonized scriptures, just for the sake of defining what 'God's ideas' are for the human race.)
The bible speaks about God accepting man--it's not the way religion presents it. That's the problem with a lot of this--so much of what God is defined as, in these discussions, comes from the religious norm instead of personal insight and true study of the materials which are available.

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When God created the chain of events that made Heph he also knew that he was making Heph's choice for her, and he knew how the various circumstances and character would make her choose either right or wrong.

Too much emphasis on the direction of the choice! It's not about the choice made, but rather about the process of facing decision, making a choice, and then living with the outcome. Every single time. No choice is wrong, in that sense. We aren't here to make the 'right' decision and avoid the 'wrong' thing. We are here to learn. We have our choices as trainers--the dilemnas we face in life are not deterministic in whether we are doomed or charmed--they present challenges and venues for the growth and development of our inner selves.

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Heph would go forth and make that very decision that God knew she would make, and by virtue that God knowingly set up all the factors that affected her decision, it was not up to Heph but to God to decide how Heph would fare.

God decided, long before any of us had any decisions before us (long before!) how each of us would fare. And there is no choice we can make that will doom us or save us. We're all in the same exact boat.

God is ahead of you--He (She) did foresee and in so doing, made sure that
our choices are not our downfall. We already fell once--now we are in the process of 'getting back up.'

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Ray, Your confidence is humanity cannot be proven. There have been experiments done at Stanford and Yale where students were segregated into two groups, the leaders and the followers. The leaders were told to apply electric shock to the followers to get the response they demanded, and found that all the leaders applied higher and higher voltages to their victims - even when the followers screamed loudly. This experiment showed that it doesn't matter what their cultureal environment; that all humans are capable of applying inhuman treatment to their peers. They had to stop the experiments, because they concluded that everybody has the capacity to torture others.

There is no denying that there is always a potential for both inhumane, and humane actions. I was just saying that I believe in an objective basis of morality that people are capable of attaining. As to the experiment, do they even realize that they're hurting the other person as much as they did? I mean even if you are to see things from a selfish person's point of view, why would they commit the action under such watched environment?

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