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Liberal Hypocrisy about Intelligent Design

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 04:56 pm
Explain what? Homophobia? I don't think it needs explaining.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 05:07 pm
Very intelligent response edgar. Of course, because someone doesn't agree with you, then they must be labeled something.

It can't just be that you have your beliefs and I have mine and they differ? Sad.

Ok, if you can't beat them, join them? If I am homophobic, I submit many of you are religiphobic. Laughing
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 05:16 pm
That was funny as hell.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 05:20 pm
None of us are trying to change the laws of this country to discriminate against any group of Americans. That's the big difference.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 05:21 pm
Cute, but not to the point. What I said was true. No elaboration necessary. And, I didn't mention religion in my response. You don't have to be a jesus worshipper to be homophobic, you just have to be homophobic.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 05:25 pm
There are homophobics...and religiophobics....
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 05:30 pm
Maybe there are, lash, but I don't know any.
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 06:08 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

Paul was not one of the original disciples of Christ in the sense that he was with Christ at the times of the others. He was; however, a man who had killed and persecuted Christians for years. He became a believer in Christ and he changed his ways. He no longer murdered and persecuted the Christians. He became a disciple of Jesus and spread the gospel. So, if that means you think he made it up as he went along, ok.

I am amazed at how many seem to think there has been some huge conspiracy going on for 2000 years. I would think if someone was smart enough to come up with a conspiracy theory such as some believe Christianity is, they would have answered a lot more questions. But, perhaps it's just because they were not as progressive as our society is today?


Momma, Paul was not spreading the gospel of Jesus. If you compare the teaching of Jesus with the teachings of Paul you will see a large number of discrepancies between the message of Jesus and Paul's message. He doesn't even pretend to be spreading the word of Jesus in many of his admonitions. They are coming from his heart and his desires.

How long do you suppose the Amerindians believed in their Gods before they were forced to convert to Christianity or be killed? What about the Hindus, the Greeks, the Romans? 2000 years isn't all that long for a faith practice. The Atlantic Monthly article that Noddy referenced in another thread is about man's innate desire for worship and to have faith in the supernatural even in the presence of conflicting intelligence. I don't think the 2000 years of Christianity is all that long, particularly considering the Jewish faith is based on at least 5000 years of history and the stories of the Pentateuch go back even further.

Do I think modern day Christianity evolved from a conspiracy? Partly that, the Church had it's own interests in mind when it created it's doctrines and canon. But it's partly from the human desire to have answers where there are unanswerable questions, and partly from the great desire on the part of some Jews to have the scriptures fulfilled and glory returned to the people. The oppression of the Jews by the Romans was horrific, Jesus gave them hope that the rule was that of God, not the emperor.

I have a great deal of faith. I love the message of Jesus and I wish it wasn't appropriated into something else. I don't consider myself a Christian in the modern sense of the word but if limited to the actual message and not the spin put on it by those who followed afterwards there's is a tremendous value to be heard. My faith is broader than Jesus' message, but it's a large part of it.

I've recently started reading two books, both by Bart D. Ehrman, chairman of the religious studies department at UNC, Chapel Hill. One is "Lost Christianities, The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew, 2003 Oxford University Press and the other is Lost Scriptures, Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament, OUP, 2003. Both are very interesting reads and help me understand the historical significance of what was happening as Christianity was being shaped.
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 07:58 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
It's just one of those things that I have always felt was wrong. The first time I ever heard of a man and a man together in that manner or a woman and a woman I just felt it was wrong.

The Bible did reinforce that belief, yes. I cannot and will deny that. So, if there is anyone out there that is not religious and believes it is wrong, I'd like to hear from them and perhaps they could help me explain it.



I am in no way religious. And, although it's not for me to say that homosexuality is "wrong", I do not think that it is something to be proud of, nor do I think it should be promoted.
At the same time, though, I don't think it's that big a deal. I would not vote to make (or keep) gay marriage illegal. In fact, I think it should be legal. I can't see how my rights would be affected by it. IMO homosexuality is a personal problem.
You could argue that it would damage our society in the long run. But, despite anyone's best guess, there's no way to know.
I assume you believe that lying is a sin, but would you support legislation to outlaw that? (Liars are probably more likely to violate your rights than gays are.)
Just my opinion, of course.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 08:01 pm
I think we addressed that particular question earlier, echi.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 08:48 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Cicerone Imposter Wrote:

Quote:
MA is wrong again. We must be concerned with our personal conduct, and not so much with other people's conduct. The laws of any country will limit behavior of everybody. Why do you care of somebody in Finland, two girls or two boys, wish to marry? What concern is it of yours? How does their marriage impact your life? How will you impose your religious beliefs on them?


I am not talking about doing anything about any other laws but in the United States. Since I am an American citizen I have the right and duty (IMO) to vote what I believe is right. You have the same right.

I have already explained my position on this many times. You want what you want and I want what I want. You don't want me imposing my religious beliefs on you and I don't want you imposing your immoral belief on me. Now, how do you like it? To you what I am doing is wrong because I do it because of my religious beliefs. If the Bible says it is immoral and you are saying it's ok, then yes, that appears to me to be an immoral belief. It doesn't mean, that because you do one thing I consider immoral, that you are immoral, does it? We all sin.

Me: You seem to miss the point over and over again. We are not saying you advocating outlawing same sex marriages is wrong because you are voting against it because of your belief. We are saying it is wrong because you are forcing your belief onto other people and you have not the right to do that whether you are doing for it for religious reason or just plain homophobia or just because you think it is wrong for whatever reason (though I can't imagine what other reason there could be.

Not consistent, revel? How can we legislate every sin (immorality or wrong or whatever you want to call it) when the rights and wrongs cannot even be agreed upon? How up in arms would you (not literal sense) be if a prison sentence was given to those that lie? In many states, there are laws against adultery. They may not be enforced, but there are laws. There are laws against pologamy.

Me: I personally don't see anything wrong more polygamy either for the same reason I don't see anything with two people of the same sex getting married if they want. Even though I believe both to be against (although polygamy is a little murky) what the Bible teaches and so in my own personal belief; I think it is wrong to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, married or not married. I just don't feel I have the right to enforce my beliefs onto anyone else.

Oh, I see. Since there are other bad influences out there why should we worry about one more? Maybe, just maybe ignoring that first bad influence was a mistake. So many bad influences add up until bad influences may some day take over.

Me: That being the case, why make same sex marriage the issue when there are so many sins which are not covered by the laws of the land.

Since there is a kingdom which is within us and everyone who believes make up the kingdom and meet and worship with one another in church and other places, there is where preaching against living sinfully should be preached to avoid the day when "bad influences just take over." Also everyone is responsible for their own actions and keeping themselves "unspotted from the world." We cannot control the world and it is mistake to think we can and wrong to even try. We can try to be a good influence and use persuasion by preaching the gospel to those who are receptive but anything else is going beyond what we are required to do in the Bible. Jesus said to let your light shine so that by your good works men will believe. (going by memory, so may have it worded wrong)
Lash,

Love it. But, I would imagine they will just tell some of us to get out of the pool


It is kind of an offensive analogy; some people might not think homosexuality is likened to urine. But actually, your right, I would say I would just get out of the pool and take a shower and then I would be clean again. But some people would not think anyone peed at all since they don't think homosexuality is wrong. (Getting kind of convoluted there)
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:02 pm
revel wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Cicerone Imposter Wrote:

Quote:
MA is wrong again. We must be concerned with our personal conduct, and not so much with other people's conduct. The laws of any country will limit behavior of everybody. Why do you care of somebody in Finland, two girls or two boys, wish to marry? What concern is it of yours? How does their marriage impact your life? How will you impose your religious beliefs on them?


I am not talking about doing anything about any other laws but in the United States. Since I am an American citizen I have the right and duty (IMO) to vote what I believe is right. You have the same right.

I have already explained my position on this many times. You want what you want and I want what I want. You don't want me imposing my religious beliefs on you and I don't want you imposing your immoral belief on me. Now, how do you like it? To you what I am doing is wrong because I do it because of my religious beliefs. If the Bible says it is immoral and you are saying it's ok, then yes, that appears to me to be an immoral belief. It doesn't mean, that because you do one thing I consider immoral, that you are immoral, does it? We all sin.

Me: You seem to miss the point over and over again. We are not saying you advocating outlawing same sex marriages is wrong because you are voting against it because of your belief. We are saying it is wrong because you are forcing your belief onto other people and you have not the right to do that whether you are doing for it for religious reason or just plain homophobia or just because you think it is wrong for whatever reason (though I can't imagine what other reason there could be.

And you also seem to be missing the same point. You vote for what you want to be a law. You don't vote for what you don't want to be a law. WE ARE DOING THE SAME THING. Even if I just voted against it because I just felt like it, that would be my right, just as it would be your right. It makes neither of us more right or more wrong than the other.

Not consistent, revel? How can we legislate every sin (immorality or wrong or whatever you want to call it) when the rights and wrongs cannot even be agreed upon? How up in arms would you (not literal sense) be if a prison sentence was given to those that lie? In many states, there are laws against adultery. They may not be enforced, but there are laws. There are laws against pologamy.

Me: I personally don't see anything wrong more polygamy either for the same reason I don't see anything with two people of the same sex getting married if they want. Even though I believe both to be against (although polygamy is a little murky) what the Bible teaches and so in my own personal belief; I think it is wrong to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, married or not married. I just don't feel I have the right to enforce my beliefs onto anyone else.

If I were to vote for this it is the same thing as me condoning it and I cannot and will not do that.

Oh, I see. Since there are other bad influences out there why should we worry about one more? Maybe, just maybe ignoring that first bad influence was a mistake. So many bad influences add up until bad influences may some day take over.

Me: That being the case, why make same sex marriage the issue when there are so many sins which are not covered by the laws of the land.

Because this happens to be the one in the mainstream right now. And it is what we are discussing.

Since there is a kingdom which is within us and everyone who believes make up the kingdom and meet and worship with one another in church and other places, there is where preaching against living sinfully should be preached to avoid the day when "bad influences just take over." Also everyone is responsible for their own actions and keeping themselves "unspotted from the world." We cannot control the world and it is mistake to think we can and wrong to even try. We can try to be a good influence and use persuasion by preaching the gospel to those who are receptive but anything else is going beyond what we are required to do in the Bible. Jesus said to let your light shine so that by your good works men will believe. (going by memory, so may have it worded wrong)

Yes, Jesus did say that. He also said, do not call good evil and evil good. Now, I am not calling homosexuality evil. I believe that means we should not call wrong right or right wrong.

Lash,

Love it. But, I would imagine they will just tell some of us to get out of the pool


It is kind of an offensive analogy; some people might not think homosexuality is likened to urine. But actually, your right, I would say I would just get out of the pool and take a shower and then I would be clean again. But some people would not think anyone peed at all since they don't think homosexuality is wrong. (Getting kind of convoluted there) mmmm

And that is just turning our back on it and to me that is the same thing as condoning it. As long as I keep within my legal rights when lobbying and voting, I am going to vote for what I think is right. Just as you would.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:17 pm
Defending Democracy and Diversity
Introduction to how the U.S. Political Right agenda is undermining human rights.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:19 pm
Don't suppose you would care to elaborate on just what you mean by that? And no, I don't know, otherwise I wouldn't ask.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:28 pm
Suggested Reading List On Christians and Homosexuality:

For a much deeper understanding of the relationship between the Christian church and the homosexual, please read John J. McNeill's The Church and the Homosexual. (Beacon Press, 25 Beacon Street, Boston, MA 02108.) This Jesuit priest suffered at the hands of the Nazis when his infantry division was captured in 1944. With the same courage he has dedicated himself to awakening the church to the homosexual's contribution to Christian communities.

"The New Testament and Homosexuality" Robin Scroggs, Prof of New Testament at Union Theological Seminary is a serious theologian and is favorable reviewed by many theologians. He is a happily married heterosexual with no personal bias. He includes cites from Boswell and expands further especially on pederasty and concludes there is nothing biblically wrong with homosexuality.

"Body Theology" James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United Theological Seminary, New Brighton, Minnesota I mention it on heterosexual issues but he also says a alt about false homosexual repression. He is favorable reviewed by theologians at Yale Divinity School and Xavier University. William Coffin, Pastor Emeritus, Riverside Church of New York, says "For all pastors, counselors, and especially Church members who are silent, timid, or negative about sexuality "Body Theology" is a godsend." Nelson calls Christian Homophobia a sin from Jewish through Christian times due to the false understandings. What the Bible forbids is acts of lust, rape, idolatry, violation of religious purity obligations, or pederasty, but not condemnation of homosexuality in relationships of mutual respect and love. "On the other hand, the Bible pointedly celebrates instances of same-sex emotional intimacy, a fact often overlooked by fearful homophobic readers.

"What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" by Daniel Helminiask, PH.D., was ordained as a Catholic priest in 1967 and is incardinated in the Diocese of Pittsburgh. From 1981-1985 was Assoc Prof for Systematic Theology at Oblate School of Theology and earlier completed his Ph.D. in systematic theology at Boston College and Andover Newton Theological School. He currently is a pastoral counselor and a Fellow of the Amer Assn of Pastoral Counselors and has authored many books and articles. He concludes the Bible says absolutely nothing about homosexuality being sinful when you examine the actual Hebrew/Greek texts.

"God is not a Homophobe: An unbiased look at Homosexuality in the Bible" by Philo Thelos
http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=5128&20544930-9240aaa
Several books already exist attempting to demonstrate that the Christian Bible does not, in fact, condemn consenting-adult homosexuality. But God is Not a Homophobe has a unique perspective in that the author has a lifetime of experience in pastoring hard-core fundamentalist churches. His former bitter opposition to all forms of homosexuality has given way to a rational, unbiased acceptance that the Bible says hardly anything about homosexuality, and what it does say cannot honestly be used to condemn consenting same-sex unions.

In God Is Not a Homophobe, the author examines in detail every Bible verse and every Bible-based argument against homosexuality, and concludes with a view radically different from what is offered by the modern church. His conclusions will surprise many, and will surely aggravate and anger many more. But he believes the evidence in this book will stand the test of investigation. This unbiased look at homosexuality in the Bible gives much food for thought, and hopefully, much incentive for change in our attitude toward and treatment of those whose sexual orientation is "different."

For nearly forty years Philo Thelos pastored right wing, fundamentalist, evangelical churches. Intensive study through those years moved him progressively away from legalistic, church law and into a more compassionate view of the human condition. His eyes were also opened to a starkly different view of ethics and morality than what is common in the modern church.

His driving passion has been to find truth- at whatever cost. He brought into ministry all the baggage of legalistic religion, complete with its rabid anti-homosexual rhetoric. But research and prayer have reversed his pre-conceived views on many matters.

God Is Not A Homophobe is his presentation of the research that led to his conclusion that the Bible does not condemn consenting adult homosexuality.

"In The Courts Of The Lord" by James Ferry This is the account of a gay priest and the incredible journey his life took.

'In God's Image - Christian Witness to the Need For Gay/Lesbian Equality in the Eyes of the Church" By Robert Warren Cromey, Rector, Trinity Episcopal Church

"Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality" John Boswell was professor of history at Yale and the winner of the 1981 American Book Award For History among other things. Boswell's 400 page book is renowned as being the most comprehensive study and is the result of ten years of research. Boswell's extensive study cites from over 100 other scholars works. Paul Robinson of The New York Times Book Review, says of the book "John Boswell restores one's faith in scholarship...His knowledge of the relevant scholarly literature is remarkable, and his book displays the sweep and control that one finds only in the work of a major historian. Newsweek in its review said "An astonishing work of scholarship that ranges with ease over fourteen centuries, almost as many languages..." Boswell goes on for 60 pages just on lexicography, texts and translations. He takes the biblical language very seriously. Boswell was a price winning, respected historian before his death from AIDS. Because he was also gay does in no way take away from his research was has been supported by many non-gay Christian theologians.

"Stranger At The Gate" by Mel White
Mel While, one of the most respected evangelical writers coming out of the gay closet. Mel was ghost writer for many of the books and speeches of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham. This book details the authors attempts to hide from his natural homosexuality and his own journey as well as examine the religious rights agenda. White is now Dean of Dallas s Cathedral of Hope, the largest gay church in the world.

"Is The Homosexual My Neighbor?" by Latha Dawson Scanzoni This is the revised edition of the classic book that calls for Christians to reexamine their beliefs and attitudes toward homosexuals. The authors look at homosexuality from biblical, scientific and psychological perspectives. An excellent resource.

"But Lord, They're Gay" By Rev. Sylvia Pennington. Author was a straight women who went to San Francisco was a missionary to save Gay people and found God in The Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) like she had never experienced God before.

Quotes From Others of Different Christian Denominations:

Baptist Rev Dr. William R. Stayton, Divinity degree from Andover
Newtown Theological School and on faculty of LaSalle University's Grad program in Religious studies: - "There is nothing in the Bible regarding homosexual orientation. In fact, the Bible does not concern itself with sexual orientation. It does speak against gang rape, male prostitution for religious purposes, and pederasty. I lead bible study programs on this subject and am convinced that the Bible does not address the issue of a person's sexual orientation."

Presbyterian Rev. Dr. George R. Edwards, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of New Testament Theology at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary - "God does not regard homosexuality as a sin any more than heterosexuality."

Catholic Sister Mary Ann Ford, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary for 39 years - "Homosexual orientation is set by age five or six..it is not a matter of choice..How then could an all-loving God possibly violate Divine nature and regard homosexuals as sinners?.

United Church of Christ: Dr. Karen Lebacqz, Ph.D., Professor of Christian Ethics Pacific School of Religion, BS degree in Biblical history from Wellesley College and Masters and Ph.D. in religion from Harvard University - "Scripture speaks negatively about certain behaviors, most notably temple prostitution, not about basic orientation or about loving gay/lesbian relationships. What God DOES regard as a sin is oppression, injustice, persecution, disrespect for persons. This sin, then, is homophobia, gay-bashing, refusal to include lesbian/gay/bisexual people into our churches - that IS a sin."

United Methodist: Bishop Melvin Wheatley, retired after 33 years as pastor and 12 years as bishop of the Denver area. - "The scriptures at no point deal with homosexuality as sexual orientation...Those acts labeled as wrong out of the context of the times in which the writers wrote and perceived those acts to be either idolatrous, exploitative, or pagan. The kind of relationships between two consenting adults of the same sex which are mutual, affirming and fulfilling are not dealt with in the Scriptures. Homosexuality is an authentic condition of being with which some persons are endowed (a gift of God, if you please), not an optional sexual lifestyle which they have willfully, whimsically or sinfully chosen."

Summary:
Only the false teachings of tradition church doctrine condemns a whole class of citizens. This should be a serious issue that Christians need to confront and deal with. Many clergy are stepping forward. But most mainline denominations for the most part, still indoctrinate in the name of God, the false biblical teachings. Even though I am very heterosexual and have no personal issue in these matters, it greatly upsets me that any should suffer for being what God made them.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:38 pm
The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1Corinthians 6:9).

You can show me all you want what some MAN said about homosexuality being perfectly ok. It will not change my mind anymoe than my telling you that God said it is a sin is going to change your mind.

Just accept that I will vote what I think is right and you will vote what you think is right. If you think I am wrong, fine, then you think I am wrong. Doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Just because a man says it is okay to do DOES NOT MAKE IT OKAY. To me, it is wrong and it will never be right. To you, it is right and it will never be wrong. That's the way it is. That is called life. That is called everyone is different. So, you vote for what you want and I will vote for what I want and we will both have done our civic duty.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:53 pm
MA, That's not a postulate of one man. All the people that are listed in my post are biblical scholars. It's the kind of people you should listen to.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 09:56 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
MA, That's not a postulate of one man. All the people that are listed in my post are biblical scholars. It's the kind of people you should listen to.


C.I.,

If what they say goes against the Word of God, I am not going to listen to what they say.

Oh, so you will listen to Biblical scholars? Shocked Oh! Wow! I guess as long as they agree with you, that is? Now, who's picking and choosing what they want to believe? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 10:03 pm
Momma
You called atheists hard headed. You win the blue ribbon for denseness.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2005 10:09 pm
Biblical scholars don't mean a thing to me; but one would think anyone interested in seeking the truth about the bible would be. I was wrong.


MA, I hope you are blessed with a homosexual grandchild during your life time.
0 Replies
 
 

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