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freedom of speech? did i do anything wrong here?

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youngman
 
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 03:24 pm
so i created an online group with the abbreviation of my school in it, and the school counselor told me that i can't do it?

for example, suppose, the school name is called college of anywhere, and i created a group called talkaboutCOA , does the school have the rights to tell me that i can't do it? can they have the rights to tell me to delete that group?

another question, can the school also tell me that it is not ok to call some students at my school aholes, and then post them on that group? do i have the right to do that?
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 03:55 pm
This sounds very much like repression of Freedom of Speech. I would continue with the web site and fight it to the Supreme Court. Or tell the counselor to take a flying leap off a bridge. I don't condone calling anyone an assh*ole unless he'she deserves the title.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 04:45 pm
Freedom of speech isn't an absolute, it's hedged with limitations and considerations. You're finding that out in very practical way.
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youngman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 04:56 pm
well, i also agree that it is repression of freedom of speech. however, they have the power to discipline me in anyway they want. so it is not worth it.

for goodfielder, tell me why calling someone an ahole on a web site is not ok? it is like i write in my diary, then instead of writing it on a paper, i used an online diary where anyone can read. i am entitled to my opinion if someone is an ahole or not, i just don't see why it is not ok to do so.
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username
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 04:57 pm
They may very well have trademarked or copyrighted the name and the abbreviation--I know Harvard successfully puts pressure on anyone that they don't like using the name, for example. It might be more cumbersome, but if you called your website www.TalkAboutThat CollegeInCambridge (or wherever, obviously), they'd probably have less of a case (but talk to a real lawyer--does your school have a law school you could hit up for some pro bono work?).
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username
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 05:00 pm
oops, the software thought that was a link in my previous post, rather than just an example. It's not real. Don't click on it (I did, to see what would happen. It just tells you it can't find that site, which is not surprising).
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 05:41 pm
It's unfortunate but under the Bush administration Freedom of Speech has been reduced to a political catch phrase without meaning. Our rights are being trampled on daily. Trust me. I'm 45 years old.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 06:00 pm
youngman wrote:


for goodfielder, tell me why calling someone an ahole on a web site is not ok? it is like i write in my diary, then instead of writing it on a paper, i used an online diary where anyone can read. i am entitled to my opinion if someone is an ahole or not, i just don't see why it is not ok to do so.


The difference between your diary and letting it loose for the whole world to see, is that many of your social circle will be able to read your views.
Yes, you have the right to freedom of speech, but with every right, there comes a counterbalancing responsibility.

For instance, you say that it is perfectly acceptable to claim that someone is an a*shole. That word implies a high degree of stupidity and casts doubt as to the character of the person to which you are aiming this insult.
Is there a boundary to what is acceptable and what is not?

Say your supposed a*shole cranks it up a notch, and enters a post onto THEIR website, a statement that you are a paedophile or a drug addict (after all, that may be his opinion).....how would YOU react?....knowing that all of your friends had full access to that information.

I don't know how the law works over in the USA, but over here in the UK, I would suspect that describing someone an a*shole in specific terms and in a public arena, could be bordering on defamation of character.

Better to recognize that you are very fortunate to have the priviledge of free speech, and to respect that priviledge, you also should pay heed to your responsibilities in this area, and act accordingly.

If you can prove beyond doubt that he is an a*shole, that is another matter.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 06:30 pm
Re: freedom of speech? did i do anything wrong here?
youngman wrote:
so i created an online group with the abbreviation of my school in it, and the school counselor told me that i can't do it?

for example, suppose, the school name is called college of anywhere, and i created a group called talkaboutCOA , does the school have the rights to tell me that i can't do it? can they have the rights to tell me to delete that group?


Are you in college? Is this a private college or a public college?

Ask your school counselor to support her statements. Are you allegedly violating the code of student conduct? Ask the counselor to provide you with a copy of the specific law, state statute, or school policy (code of student conduct) that prohibits you from using the name of the school in your "talkaboutnameofschool" discussion group and subjects you to punishment or discipline for the alleged violation thereof.

Do you have a disclaimer on your website informing people that your discussion group is NOT sponsored by the school? Perhaps the school is concerned that others will perceive your group as a school sponsored publication and the school doesn't want its name associated with a website that publishes derogatory opinions about its staff or students.


Quote:
another question, can the school also tell me that it is not ok to call some students at my school aholes, and then post them on that group? do i have the right to do that?



Again, ask the counselor to provide you with a copy of the specific law, state statute, or school policy that prohibits you from expressing your opinion about other students and subjects you to punishment or discipline for the alleged violation thereof.


Governmental prior restraints on speech are generally prohibited by the First Amendment. However, you are personally responsible for what you publish. For instance, if you use your website to publish defamatory statements about other persons, you may be held liable for damages to the injured party.

Generally, stating someone is an a$$hole is not defamatory. It is a statement of opinion, not of fact. Only false statements of fact are capable of constituting defamation.

See GERTZ v. ROBERT WELCH, INC., 418 U.S. 323 (1974) (there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact).
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 06:32 pm
youngman wrote:
well, i also agree that it is repression of freedom of speech. however, they have the power to discipline me in anyway they want. so it is not worth it.

for goodfielder, tell me why calling someone an ahole on a web site is not ok? it is like i write in my diary, then instead of writing it on a paper, i used an online diary where anyone can read. i am entitled to my opinion if someone is an ahole or not, i just don't see why it is not ok to do so.


If we're in a bar and you say to me that Joe Smith is an a*hole I will snort and laugh and beer will pour out of my nostrils but just you and me know you said it. If you're in a bar and you get up on a table and yell out to everyone in the bar that Joe Smith is an a*hole then you're telling everyone.

I'm referring to the issue of defamation. It's complex and I am not a lawyer so I have no expertise in the subject but if you defame someone on a website you can be sued and made to pay damages. It depends on where the plaintiff decides to lodge the case. There has been a successful defamation case where a businessman who was defamed by an online magazine "published" in New York was sued in his own jurisdiction (Victoria, Australia) and won damages against the publishers.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 06:46 pm
Of course, we don't have all the information to really know for sure whether the school is acting appropriately with respect to youngman's online discussion group.

If youngman is using his online discussion group as a "hate" forum for harassing other students and threatening their safety, the school might have a duty to take action against him to eliminate harassment and to protect the other students.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Nov, 2005 07:00 pm
youngman wrote:
. . tell me why calling someone an ahole on a web site is not ok? it is like i write in my diary, then instead of writing it on a paper, i used an online diary where anyone can read. i am entitled to my opinion if someone is an ahole or not, i just don't see why it is not ok to do so.


You're not writing an entry in a private diary.

You're PUBLISHING statements about other persons to everyone who subscribes to the world wide web.

You are responsible for what you PUBLISH. You are liable to persons you injure if you publish false statements of fact. If you substantiated your opinion that some is an ahole by reference to false statements of fact, you may be held liable for damages in a defamation action.
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youngman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 08:54 am
Re: freedom of speech? did i do anything wrong here?
hello, debra law and all others, thanks for the reply.

well, first of all, i am not in any trouble. i had to take down that group online. however, i just felt that what the counselor told me is wrong. that is why i come to here and ask for opinions.

And that is what i told the counselor the first time, the school does not have any rules that forbidding me setting up groups online. however, one thing that i am not sure about is if it is ok to use the school abbreviation in the name of my group, and if it is ok to put the school's name on the group web site?

i know that Lindow company had to change their name after microsoft sued them.

the counselor told me that it is not ok to make "personal attacks" on the web site. and in reality, all i wrote was something like this site is "aaa free, ahole free, "first name of two students" free. I did not directly call those students aholes, but you can get the hint from that.

and as far as i know, there are plenty of people making dirty comments about the US presidents, i doubt that any of them got any visits from fbi for doing that.

"Only false statements of fact are capable of constituting defamation. "

exactly, i did not even say it directly that those students are aholes, and i did not make any other false statements at all.

i think that i probably will win this case. but i just felt it is un-necessary to spend all my energy on this little thing. that is why i took down that group site.
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Beena
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Dec, 2005 01:53 am
The Constitution gives us all the right of freedom of expression of speech - the said and written word. According to that right, you can name your webpages anything and talk about anything in there. Your opinion does not become fact. Since we are all free to voice our opinions, if your school says you can't write or say this or that, your school is violating YOUR rights. Just because someone says something does not mean that whatever or whoever it pertains to changes because of the expressed opinion. It does not change because opinion is merely opinion. Since what or who is talked about does not change essentially, there cannot be a case where one can say that another cannot say or write this or that.
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youngman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Dec, 2005 12:47 pm
beena, thanks for the words.

that is what i was expecting to read. =) that school counselor was not impartial at all, he listened to the other sides' story completely. and he was like, if you don't take down that group, you will get a disciplinary letter from the school this week, etc, etc. totally piss me off.

the ahole student lied to him, told him that i still have "aaa free, ahole free" on my group page, but i myself even forgot that i actually only had "aaa free" on the page. and the counselor told me that i can't have any negative comments on my own free yahoo group, heck. who does he think that he is!

exactly, my personal opinion is just my opinion. thanks.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Dec, 2005 03:10 pm
Beena wrote:
The Constitution gives us all the right of freedom of expression of speech - the said and written word. According to that right, you can name your webpages anything and talk about anything in there. Your opinion does not become fact. Since we are all free to voice our opinions, if your school says you can't write or say this or that, your school is violating YOUR rights. Just because someone says something does not mean that whatever or whoever it pertains to changes because of the expressed opinion. It does not change because opinion is merely opinion. Since what or who is talked about does not change essentially, there cannot be a case where one can say that another cannot say or write this or that.


Beena:

You are wrong.

The Constitution does NOT "give" any person any rights. The people retained ALL of their liberty interests when they established the government and freedom of speech is a retained liberty interest.

The Constitution is the document that organizes the federal government, enumerates government powers, and places limitations on government powers.

The First Amendment is a limitation on GOVERNMENT. The First Amendment is NOT a limitation on private parties. It provides that CONGRESS shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. It is applicable against STATE government via the Fourteenth Amendment. The First Amendment limits the ability of government to place "prior restraints" on speech. However, every person is accountable for everything he or she publishes. Posting words on a public website is publication. If youngman used the school's name improperly or violated the student code of conduct, he cannot automatically assert that he has a right secured by the First Amendment to do so.

Accordingly, when you assert that youngman can name his "webpages anything and talk about anything in there," you are WRONG. Inasmuch as youngman has not provided enough facts to allow anyone to evaluate whether he was engaging in speech protected against government abridgment or whether he was engaging in unprotected speech, it is premature to jump to his defense.
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Beena
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 05:32 pm
Debra my dear, if the First Amendment says that government cannot pass a law taking away someone's right of freedom of speech (pertaining to the said and written word), then if this right is violated in any way, which in youngman's case it is, it means the First Amendment has become null and void.

Look, this is the way I believe it should be and this is merely opinion of course. Remember how someone's name was Mike Roe and he added soft afterwards and got a domain as Mikeroesoft dot whatever. Now, since he has nothing really to do with the company Microsoft, I'd say it was unethical to do that, even though he did it for fun. The point I'm trying to make is this - because of the right of freedom of expression of speech (pertaining to the said and written word), Microsoft cannot have a case against this Mike Roe but they have options. They can buy the URL from him or ask him not to take that URL, but they cannot stop him using that URL if he wants to.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2005 12:24 am
Hello Beena,

You're a dear too.

According to you, the Constitution "gives" youngman the right to name his website anything he wants and to talk about anything he wants. Therefore, if he is subjected to discipline for misusing the university's name or for launching personal attacks on his fellow students, he can invoke the "Beena said I could do it" defense.

Merry Christmas.
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Beena
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2005 01:43 am
youngman did not misuse the university's name nor did he launch any personal attacks on his fellow students. He only used his rights and stated merely opinion. And he cannot use the defense that I gave advice and based on that he did something because he has an individual mind and is not a child, alright? My advice remains my opinion. In giving advice I do not enforce my opinion. He has the full freedom to reject my advice for being opinion it may even be wrong. If you refuse to see things in the proper light it's not my fault.
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2005 08:49 am
There's opinion, and then there's knowing what you're talking about because you've actually studied this stuff.

All laws have limitations because we don't live alone, we live in a society wherein rights and needs conflict. Hence, for example, yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater, while it may, technically, be hunky-dory under the First Amendment, is actionable because people can be hurt.

Anyone can give opinions all day long, but it becomes irresponsible when those are opinions that someone, if they relied upon them, could get into serious trouble. If I offer my opinion on whether you should add more oregano to a sauce, or use premium instead of regular gas, or train your dog using a clicker rather than a harness, there is little harm to be had if I turn out to be wrong. But if I irresponsibly offer a legal opinion if I know nothing about the law, it is as if I offered medical advice while knowing nothing about medicine -- there are, potentially, serious consequences if someone relies upon my flip, unresearched answer.

PS Might want to check the Terms of Service, see: http://www.able2know.com/disclaimer.php and, in particular: http://www.able2know.com/disclaimer.php#3e
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