Michael Jackson converts to Islam

Disclaimer: Momma Angel, the following comments are not addressed to you (but you may read them, of course. Smile

) This is just a general observation.

Islam-bashing is the new anti-Semitism. It's very uncool today, even among rock-bound right wingers, to dis the Jews. Even Israel-bashing is somewhat suspect. But ever since 9/11/01 it's been open season on Muslims. People who would never say a nasty word about a Hindu or a Budhist suddenly finds it's quite acceptable to bad-mouth any member of the Muslim faith along with every individual believer in Islam. I'm with BumbleBee on this. Mohamed was a pedophile? Why doesn't anyone point out that Abraham was willing to let his wife, Sara, be given to the Pharoah as a concubine rather than take the risk of himself being killed? That the founder of the Mormon Church (which claims to be Christian) not only promoted polygamy was also, in all likelihood, a pedophile. Certainly many of his followers were, and are. That Mary Baker Eddy, founder of the Church of Christ Scientist, was, reportedly, sexually promiscuous? Why are we picking on the Muslims? Because the lunatics who crashed into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon happened to be Muslim?

Don't get me wrong. I'm prone to poke some fun at the teetotalers myself, as some of my earlier posts will show. But gentle humor is one thing; outright hostility to a faith that most of us know little about is another.

Whew! Got that off my chest!

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I havn't read this thread yet, but you say that Jackson converted to Islam? Smart move given his new residence.

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Merry Andrew,

I completely understand. I can't say that I totally understand the story of Sara and Abraham. I only know what I have read of Islam. And yes, to me, a man who has sex with a 9 year old is a pedophile. I don't believe in the Mormon religion either. I don't take to bashing anyone, if I can at all help it. And perhaps my comment about maybe Michael Jackson turned Muslim because of the child bride thing was a bit over the top and for that I do apologize. (I understand you didn't aim this at me, but I felt I needed to apologize for that comment anyway.)

So, in the future, I will be much more cautious about making any such statements.

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BBB

As a fellow "atheist" I am surprised you appear to grant "theism" some sort of equal status.

Surely a-theism constitutes a rejection of theism and all its infantile and pernicious aspects.

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fresco

fresco wrote:

BBB
As a fellow "atheist" I am surprised you appear to grant "theism" some sort of equal status.
Surely a-theism constitutes a rejection of theism and all its infantile and pernicious aspects.

I hoped other atheists would understand that I was not defending Islam and certainly not any organized religion. I was objecting to the undeserved insulting of people the same way I would object to anti-semitism or other racist attitudes.

I find it harder and harder to "tolerate" any organized religion as the religious wars, verbal and violent, heat up here and throughout the world.
The evil of organized religion cannot be understated.

BBB

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Merry Andrew
Merry Andrew, APPLAUSE!

bbb

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BBB,

I am sorry. I am not trying to cause trouble with you. I am trying to understand. You have used many negative words about Christianity to me and others. I just didn't understand why you felt there was a difference between the way a Muslim was being treated and the way Christians have been treated on these posts.

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Momma Angel
Momma, Angel, I hope this is the last time I have to respond to you on A2K.

Since you began posting on A2K, you've been criticized for your racial and religious bigotry by me and a number of other A2K members. Your habit is to deny the charge, and then to finally apologize for some of them.

Continuing to make such remarks and then apologizing for them won't work here. One would hope that you would learn something, but it appears you don't and never will.

Perhaps you should think longer about your remarks before you make them. It would save you a lot of apologizing time---and might make you a better representative of your religious beliefs.

BBB

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Momma Angel
Momma Angel, please spare us from your holier than thou innocent game. We are all wise to you.

You know very well I did not single out christianity. I condem all ORGANIZATION RELIGION.

Do you think you will ever be able to remember that fact and quit trying to con us?

BBB

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BBB and Merry Andrew,

I would be interested in your thoughts on Sam Harris's singling out of Islam for special attention.

QUOTE:

" We are at war with Islam.....It is not merely that we are at war with an otherwise peaceful religion that has been hijacked" by extremists. We are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran......A future in which Islam and the West do not stand on the brink of mutual annihilation is a future in which most Muslims have learned to ignore most of their canon, just as most Christians have learned to do.* Such a transformation is by no means guaranteed to occur, however, given the tenets of Islam." (p109 "The End of Faith")

*(i.e. the violence directed at sinners in the OT)

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fresco

fresco wrote:

BBB and Merry Andrew,

I would be interested in your thoughts on Sam Harris's singling out of Islam for special attention.

QUOTE:

" We are at war with Islam.....It is not merely that we are at war with an otherwise peaceful religion that has been hijacked" by extremists. We are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran......A future in which Islam and the West do not stand on the brink of mutual annihilation is a future in which most Muslims have learned to ignore most of their canon, just as most Christians have learned to do.* Such a transformation is by no means guaranteed to occur, however, given the tenets of Islam." (p109 "The End of Faith")

*(i.e. the violence directed at sinners in the OT)

Fresco, have you read The End of Faith? I'm about half way through it.

The most important thing Harris poses is we have to stop being tolerant of violent religionists just to show respect for their rights to have beliefs. Harris' targets those who have perverted their religion's tenets to favor their political goals. That includes all ORGANIZED religions.

BBB

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I think we are at war with Islam. I have never bought into the idea that the jihadists are following a perverted form of the religion. Who are we in the West to say what constitutes a deviation from "true Islam". The jihadists certainly think they are within the Islamic fold, and they are hardly ever denounced as "un Islamic" by more moderate Muslims.

But having said that, this is not really a religious fight like the crusades. Who gives a damn about religion? This is a fight for control of the worlds diminishing oil reserves, 70% of which lie in the Middle East. If the Buddhists or the Hindus just happened to be sitting on the worlds most important resource, you can bet we would be meddling in Buddhist or Hindu countries and inviting a similar reaction.

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Steve

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I think we are at war with Islam. I have never bought into the idea that the jihadists are following a perverted form of the religion. Who are we in the West to say what constitutes a deviation from "true Islam". The jihadists certainly think they are within the Islamic fold, and they are hardly ever denounced as "un Islamic" by more moderate Muslims.

But having said that, this is not really a religious fight like the crusades. Who gives a damn about religion? This is a fight for control of the worlds diminishing oil reserves, 70% of which lie in the Middle East. If the Buddhists or the Hindus just happened to be sitting on the worlds most important resource, you can bet we would be meddling in Buddhist or Hindu countries and inviting a similar reaction.

There is some truth in what you say.

Has the oil industry converted itself to an organization religion?

BBB

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BBB

The message I am getting is that religious moderates stand no practical chance of taming their extremists, and in the case of Islam they put themselves at risk of being the object of jihad themselves. I am not aware of any reference to "respecting the rights of moderates" or the "perversion of tenets" for political ends. I will stand corrected on this if you can give me page references, but as far as I can remember it is the moderates who have changed/ignored the tenets thereby rendering themselves "morally" impotent vis-avis their fundamentalists.

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....which is part of Steve's point above. Smile

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BBB,

I pointed out Christianity because I knew of those remarks. I don't know what you have said of other religions specifically.

If I make a mistake, I admit it. I am a Christian. I am not perfect. I MAKE PLENTY OF MISTAKES! I say things probably too quickly sometimes, yes. But, I try to recognize those mistakes and correct them.

You don't care for me, as you have pointed out, and that is fine. I just asked you a question about your post. I was confused by it and didn't want to misunderstand.

And, IMO, there isn't anyone that is going to be Christian enough for you or some other posters on A2K and in the world in general. Unless I practice my belief the way you and they think I should, then I will never measure up to you and others' expectations. I'm just glad that I don't have to worry about that.

I wish you no ill will, BBB. I just was puzzled by something you said and wanted to understand it.

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Fresco

fresco wrote:

BBB

The message I am getting is that religious moderates stand no practical chance of taming their extremists, and in the case of Islam they put themselves at risk of being the object of jihad themselves. I am not aware of any reference to "respecting the rights of moderates" or the "perversion of tenets" for political ends. I will stand corrected on this if you can give me page references, but as far as I can remember it is the moderates who have changed/ignored the tenets thereby rendering themselves "morally" impotent vis-avis their fundamentalists.

I suspect persuasion at the point of a gun is more inhibiting than chatting.

One can only hope that Islam will undergo a Reformation as Christianity did in the Catholic Church. That is the only hope that moderates have. Another problem with Islam is that it does not have a top-down power structure like s Catholic Pope. Each Imam and Mosque appears to be independent with their own variety of local Islam. Harder to achieve a reformation because it would be like street warfare fighting Mosque by Mosque. I don't know if such a structure can be totally reformed.

BBB

BBB

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Re: Fresco

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

One can only hope that Islam will undergo a Reformation as Christianity did in the Catholic Church.
BBB

I agree one can only hope. Not clear however how it will be achieved.

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seems to me christianity went downhill following the reformation. would that occur with islam as well?

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dyslexia wrote:

seems to me christianity went downhill following the reformation. would that occur with islam as well?

I have no problem at all with Christianity and Islam going downhill. The downer the faster the better imo.

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Michael Jackson converts to Islam

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