Breeders vs. DINKs: let's get ready to rumble!

Oh God Cybercat, I SO feel your pain.

I was surpised you say the terrible parents outnumber the good ones.
Actually, I always sort of thought that, but haven't said it because I'll bring down a rain of protests on my head that that isn't true. Like as if the one's you speak of are in the minority.
However, in this PC world, if someone takes it on themselves to let a parent know their kids are acting like howler monkeys, you feel like you're going to get slapped with a lawsuit.

I think Noddy put it so well.

The line between private life and public is disappearing. In this case it's not just the kids. We walk around in public exposing parts of our bodies that should only be seen in the bedroom (or at least in your house), letting the world in on our private lives via cell phones and behave as though whatever they find entertaining obviously needs to be shared with the world as a whole. Like those cars with rap music spewing profanity at the decibel level of a jet plane. Gee, thanks for sharing.

It's all tied together.

I wonder what these children are going to grow up to be like?
That mantra of - they're just kids, they're doing what kids do - just doesn't cut it anymore.

Parents like to brag how brilliant their offspring are....
So, if they are all such future mensa material, why do you think they can't understand what constitutes good behavior in public?

No one understands social behavior which has not been explained to them. If children are brilliant or dull-witted means nothing if their parents have not trained them in public behavior. That attempt at an argument is meaningless.

Yeah.

(WHAT is with that sig?)

Chai Tea, I think part of the problem in how parents relate their stories is that the definition of "good parenting" varies so much. Some people consider being open, flexible, accommodating, allowing the child to explore, etc. to be virtues. (I do, but not when those things become discourteous.) Some people think that raising little robots is damaging (I sort of do, but think kids can be both courteous and non-robotic).

I do think there is something to it generally in terms of work ethic, though. It's been something I've been decrying for a long time, and something I sought to actually teach at my center (hard to do). Last night, for example, we went out for a celebratory dinner at a nice-ish but not too fancy place -- they have a chidren's menu and crayons and such. It turns out they had a lot of customers and were down to one cook. They didn't mention this until we'd been waiting a LONG time. Sozlet had polished off the chocolate milk and colored everything on her placemat and was HUNGRY and there still wasn't any respite in sight.

E.G. and I had been talking to each other while she did her coloring thing, but as things got more desperate (after about 25 minutes of waiting for food) I saw that sozlet was about at the end of her tether and went into proactive mode. We talked to her, we made up some poems together, we went for a walk around the restaurant, and as I got increasingly starving and annoyed myself I put that aside as it would so translate to her and cast desperately about for an interesting activity that ended up being trying to balance two forks against each other upright. Much sozlet delight when it worked for a few minutes, then she had to try, etc...

Just as I was desperately accosting the waitress to bring us crackers, croutons, ANYTHING to tide her over, the food arrived. (E.G.'s was cold and for that and to apologize for the long wait we weren't billed for his.)

Anyway, the point is:

1.) The dinner, while celebratory, ended up being anything but relaxing.

2.) After exercising all of that self-control in the restaurant, sozlet was a holy terror at home for a while.

but

3.) That's the work of being a parent.

Very good example and I have experienced something like that many many times. Anymore, if the wait is long getting seated we go elsewhere, anticipating that the wait extends to the whole dining experience.

But, big but, doing such a good job as you did requires some internal fortitude that just isn't that common among most people and not just parents. I can say that I have done that well with my kids at times, but not always. Sometimes I'm tired AND hungry and pmsing and just can't get past it myself. I think in general though, it's about understanding limits -- my own and my kids. You understood sozlet's limit because you immediately recognized when it had been met and went into overdrive to extend it. I recognize my own limits and if I'm too tired and cranky to parent my children well in public we don't go out. I recognize my kids limits in that if I'm tired and cranky there's a good chance they are too. I know what's likely to keep them from behaving as well as they should (and can).

I think when it comes down to it, I personally have a problem with rants about "bad parents". I know there are some and I know I'm not one, but having been on the receiving end of disdain and judgment from strangers in public, I become instantly defensive. There is a very valid point made about children in restaurants and expectations of behavior, but I can't help but feel that some people just enjoy beating up on parents in general and think that somehow they can witness ten minutes of a person's life and decide whether that person is a good parent or not.

AMEN.

I mean RAMEN.

I've definitely had moments in public when if I was being judged as a parent during those moments, the judgement wouldn't be kind.

Same here, but ironically those aren't the moments that I was, ahem, informed of a stranger's judgment of my parenting abilities. And my response was, admittedly, equally unkind.

Good point.

I've escaped that, but I think it might be largely that such judgements seem to be muttered behind backs or under breaths or generally not the getting-my-attention-and-saying-it-directly-to-my-face that I require. Every single parent I know has horror stories of people being very judgemental and unfair. I don't mean "well yeah the parent WOULD say that", I mean patently mean people.

being open, accomodating and flexible does not include allowing children to crawl around the floor, throw themselves against other tables, running and getting in waitress's way (who by the way are carrying hot food.

perhaps the parents wish for their kids to explore the feeling of scalding soup dumped on their head.

I'm starting to repeat myself, but I'm NOT saying acting like a robot, but a public place, especially a restaurant, is NOT a place for a child to explore, it's a place to dine and socialize with the people AT YOUR TABLE.
Conversations and activities, for both adults and children, should not go beyond your table, or else you are getting into other peoples space, and THEIR rights.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if a child acts like a holy terror at home because they were made to behave like a gentleperson in public.
I'd think that would be enough incentive to either education their child and let the explore the world of civility, or keep them home until they are ready to, not be robots, but courteous members of society.

THAT is the work of being a parent

Aren't mothers supposed to keep crackers or something in their bags?




You're right Set - how can parents teach something they don't know exists?

Hmm, you seem to have completely missed my point, Chai Tea.

I'm not asking you to care if she was a holy terror at home, and I am agreeing that there are parents who don't want to put the work into keeping their kids civil. Who don't want to deal with a holy terror at home and don't want to put the work into entertaining/ engaging the kid(s) so let them go wild at the restaurant -- which I disagree with.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about too. The behind the back and eye-roll-with-a-sigh happens too but doesn't bother me as much. I tend to let out a loud sigh in response and let it go at that.

But I think it's these events that color a parent's response to public pressure. I don't think I would have been personally insulted by the cafe sign in the article as I expect that my children would behave. (I might ask that they put the sign where I could see it though, as my kids can't read yet.) But I can see how a parent who felt they were being judged unfairly might.

Unfortunately, part of that learning process is actually taking them in public. Children don't usually behave well because they're ordered to. Children learn by being told what is expected, experiencing eating in public, and being swiftly removed when they don't behave as expected. That means you might actually have to experience a child in public who has not learned this yet.

There is a set of people who are narcissistic enough that they think their need for relaxation, enjoyment, convenience, etc. outweighs everyone else's. These are the talk-on-the-cellphone-while-the-movie-is-playing theater-goers, the loudly-telling-stories-at-the-table restaurant-diners, the ignore-the-line-walk-straight-to-the-register shoppers.

A subset of these are parents.

It's like everything else; the bad ones get your attention.

Hey! First & Foremost Soz and FD - I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't been directing any of my comments to either of you.....I know that would be preaching to the choir.

I hear you both doing a lot of defending of bad parents, let them speak and be accountable for themselves.
I've found in many arenas in life that people who choose not to do the right thing, not only in child rearing, absolutely LOVE it when others come to their defense. Makes the person pointing out the gross errors of their ways seem even more the bad guy.

I don't see anyone here doing parent bashing, I see people pointing out bad parenting, and some good parents coming to their defense.

Believe it or not FreeDuck, even people without children can pick up if a child is just having a bad day, and that this isn't normally how they would act in public, and the ones who are chronically allowed to get away with murder, while the parents either ignore the bad manners, or blissfully look around at other people, sure that all are just enjoying the antics.
It doesn't take being a parent to see that, really.

In other words, I'm not talking about you two, so you don't have to defend yourselves, but don't defend others either.

Another thought, just because someone isn't a parent does not mean they are totally clueless about some concepts of child rearing. We don't live in a bubble where we don't know children need to be kept warm and dry, encouraged to learn and explore and all those other great things. A DINK can definitly have some valuable input.
To be honest, I really HATE it when someone sez to me, about ANY subject...."Oh, well you never (fill in the blank), so you could NEVER understand about (fill in the blank). Are you so sure?
Capice?

We were ALL children, and listen to this...although I'm sure you know my childhood wasn't perfect, one thing I have strong memories off, all the way back to the days of highchairs, was that EVERY Sunday, we all went to a really nice restaurant, meaning one frequented mainly by adults.

At NO time do I ever remember getting out of my chair, unless to go to the bathroom, there was no misbehaving. And guess what? It was one of the few times everyone had a good time. I have a sister 5 years younger than me, and by the time I was 6, she was going out with us, and by the time she was 4, ordering from the adult menu.

If my mother and father could pull that off......

Yes, actually going out in public is how you learn to behave in public. But that lesson can be learned very quickly. As a matter of fact, one of the most effective methods my mother used to promote good behavior went something like this....

"see how those kids are acting over there? They're making a scene and embarrassing themselves and their mother and father."

I could see how other people looked at them, and didn't want to be embarrassed like that myself. Remember, this was WAY before kindergarden.
So....those looks of scorn....sometimes they're telling you something.

If I was with a mishaving child, and others were giving the evil eye, I'd call it to the childs attention, "look at that, you making so much noise other people can't have a good time. Now settle down so You can have a good time, and everyone else.
THEN......I'd tell them....."if you don't stop. we are leaving......THEN, (gasp) if they continued..we would actually get up, and leave, no ranting at the child in the car. Just letting them know that the reason we are going home was that they weren't behaving properly, and we would go back when they could.

Would I miss a meal? Yes. But, I'd rather miss one or two outings until they got the message, than to have to put up with months of ill-manners.

I saw that happen in the park once. Two men with about 3 kids. One of the boys kept running off or whatever. One man said, "you do that again, we're going home" He did it again. The two men stood up, no fuss, picked up everything and marched the gang to the car. The only kid complaining was the escape artist. The men didn't say a word. I'll bet he got that message really quick.

Note: I'm sure they didn't leave there and go for ice cream or the movies. They went home.

Those guys were my heros.

Yeah, yeah, I know you can tear up this story, wondering about the family dynamics, whether this kid had ADD, if the children had just lost a pet goldfish, if the boy was just trying to explore and actualize himself...whatever.

He learned he was not the center of the world, and if he couldn't go along with the expected behavior, both he and others missed out.

Fair to the other kids? Sure, they know the same thing would have happened if it was one of them......Team Family.....We ALL have fun, or we ALL go home.

Actually, the fact that I'm NOT defending bad parents is specifically the point that you seem to keep missing. I am, rather, very annoyed at bad parents. Can you show me where I have defended BAD parents?

Really good summary, DrewDad.

I'm not going to pick that story apart because there's nothing wrong with it and is exactly what I'm talking about. That's good parenting. But I isn't it possible that the next day one of those parents might find themselves in a situation with a misbehaving child where he was unable to leave? Like waiting for the slow motion waitress to bring the check while his kid melts and other patrons shoot daggers at him.

What I'm defending is not "bad parents" but all parents. I wouldn't suggest that strangers who judge other parents as bad parents don't know anything about parenting, but they definitely don't know anything about that parent and their child. If I saw a child misbehaving I don't think I could tell whether they were good kids acting up or whether they acted like that all the time, so that's a skill you posess that I don't.

I know that there are bad parents as well as parents (and children) in varying stages of development. I don't think that talking about "bad parents" as some sort of demographic group is very useful. And I'm not directing this at you personally, Chai, and I don't take your comments as being directed at me. I consider myself a good parent not because I always do the right thing, but because I'm always striving to be a better parent. I like to think that most parents strive to be better and, like children, are more likely to learn by example than by scolding.

I differ in that I don't believe one should defend ANY parents....let them defend themselves.

Re: telling if a child is misbehaving is chonic or not....Yes, I suppose that IS a skill I have that you don't.

Soz - ok, let me rephrase, it's not so much that you are stating particulars re defending bad parents, no I am not missing a point. It is a general tone your writing. The comments that you don't know what's going on in a particular situation, and you've abundantly made it clear you don't appreciate bad parents.

My point, which you may be missing, is that for instance, simply because I'm not a breeder, my comments many times are automatically discounted. For instance. Quite frankly I feel my last comment was infinitly more practicl and useful than Drew Dads, but, since I can't back it up with being a breeder, my personal experience counts for nothing.

I think if when I first came around A2K I had announced I had 4 kids, I could have made any reference to valid child rearing, what I imagine I WOULD do if I had kids, I would be taken more seriously. You wouldn't know if I was a parent or not, but I might be the one that gets the "good point Chai" rather than getting blown off, because, obviously, how could I know anything.

If Boom announced she witnessed parents play hardball with the misbehaving kid at the park, the ensuing discussion would have gone on for pages at how important that kind of follow through is.

I say it, and I'm ignored.

We can use fancy terms re narcisism and exploring etc all we want....However, what is one to DO when in a situations with bad parents?
You say something to them, you're damned, you sit there and think about how hard them must be trying, you're damned.
If there is one breeder here who sees themselves in this, and it opens a crack in their little world where "it's all about the children", maybe this thread is useful....If not, it's futile.

So Soz, DD and FD.....what is one to do regarding these bad parents....rather than just discussing, I'd like some ammunition for the next time I'm trying to read a book at the library or eat a meal, but don't fell entitled to ask the parents to, quite frankly, shut your kids up before they drive me and everyone else crazy, without them looking stricken that how could they possible do something about the behavior of their own child, which they chose to have.

Someone mentioned parent bashing a while back. Well, not in this thread, but there have definitaly been times when not being a breeder has made me feel like I didn't have a right to make a commet without being automatically shot down.

I guess I'm just tired of that.

Isn't there ever a second in child rearing where if you don't do the exact perfect thing you're going to cause damage beyond repair to your child?

So not appropriate I'm sure, but I can't believe there isn't a time where a mom or dad isn't supposed to say, in an angy voice "Get your fanny over here mister and put it down in that chair! You're behaving like a brat and bothering other people! Now sit down and BE QUIET"!

See, if the other moms and dads here said they've gotten to that point, it's OK. If I say it, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Chai, I was not directly responding to you; I was commenting on the general discussion.

1. In my experience there are far more well-behaved children in public than poorly-behaved children in public. One's attention is called to the children that are making noise or acting up.

2. What to do when a kid is acting up? IMO, the best course is to remove oneself from the situation. Perhaps alert the management as to why you are leaving. Directly confronting the parent is not likely to result in a positive outcome; if they cared then they would already have contained the situation.

3. Yes, there is a time and a place to grab-up one's child. The empiricly validated parenting technique is authoritative (set limits, but discuss them with the kids). Again, though, it is a matter of the parent giving a damn. It's easy, in the short run, to be permissive (overly lenient, without setting any limits and creating children who are spoiled and disrespectful and unable to make their own choices).




As for being dismissive of your input, I doubt that anyone dismisses anything you say simply because you don't have kids. This is the first I knew about it, in fact.

I don't see this. It has not been verbalized and I don't see it in anyone's tone. In fact, the times that I have been on the receiving end of hyperjudgmentalism (probably not a real word) they were people who had been parents. So the fact that you are not a breeder doesn't really matter at all.



What?!? I specifically commented that that was an example of good parenting. It almost perfectly mirrors my example of how you teach children to behave in a restaurant. We are in complete agreement.



That all depends on the offense. If my child is approaching you in the library and it annoys you and I haven't noticed, please give him/her a dirty look. That will bring him running to me in fear and he will no longer stray from my side -- for a little while, anyway. If my child is talking too loud for you, please do whatever you would do if a grown up was talking too loudly. Referential speaking works well with children and is very effective from strangers. "That child sure is noisy, I wonder if he just doesn't know how to behave in a restaurant." The problem with telling parents to shut their kids up is that if they knew how, they would have already done it.



I'm sorry that's been your experience and I'm sure it colors your response just as my negative experiences with people who felt compelled to judge my parenting color mine. Personally, I really appreciate the contributions my childless friends and siblings make in my children's lives and often seek their advice.



I don't think so. Unless you count backing over them with your car.



Sure. And you would look at that and say, "good for her" while the person at the table next to you would say "god, she's louder than her kids, what a mean ogre of a mother". Everybody feels entitled to make judgments about someone who has children. Parents have to give the public the big middle finger and say, it's my job, I'll do it the way I see fit, and the rest of you can keep your comments to yourselves.



Who said you don't know what you're talking about?

LOL.