Hybrid or Diesel? Which one would you buy.

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What is your opinion about hybrid cars? Or better what do you think
about hybrids vs diesel cars. My bias is heavily on the side of diesels.
I hope to learn something from you. The following comments are not backed with data because I wanted to present general arguments.

Hybrids have a new cost that can take several years to even out.
Presumably this "evening out" occurs because of higher fuel mileage.
But the hybrids are not getting the highway mileage we once thought they would. What will be the eventual cost of replacing batteries? And when? (four of the top ten mileage cars are diesels.) What will a hybrid repair or tuneup cost with the complex integrated gas engine and electric motors?

The people in Washington, DC who issue the fuel mileage ratings, rate the hybrids on a, I think it's called a dynamometer. Whatever. The car is not driven, but is put on a machine. It also assumes the highwy speed is 55 mph.!!!???
Their combined MPG - City and highway are unrealistic for most people. We drive about 30 miles a week in the city and an average of about 200 miles on the highway.

Environment. Diesel engines are closing the gap on gas engines. With the introduction of low sulphur, as used in Europe, the gap will be close to closed. On diesel exhaust particles being larger than exhaust gas particles. the latest I've read that the smaller particles are more of a danger because they affect the lungs much easier.

A gallon of diesel fuel has more energy than a gallon of gasoline. This results in a more efficient use of crude oil.

Diesel engines need almost no tuneups.
Diesel engines start in below freezing weather.
Diesel engines last much longer than gas engines.

Diese fuel is not explosive. You can throw a lighted match
in a pan of diesel and the match will go out.
This is comforting in the event of a crash. There are no
fiery crashes in diesel vehicles.

Diesel fuel alternatives: Bio-diesel fuel may help to lower
the need for crude oil.

I drive a Pacifica (gas) and a 1996 VW Passat turbo diesel. (VW imported them for two years.) It has 255,000 miles on it. Does not burn oil. Starts easily at 20 degrees. And properly done, I got it started at 15 below zero without using any heating devices. I use 5-30 weight fully synthetic oil year round.

Nearly 50% of new cars purchased by Europeans are diesels.

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Last week we went to a car show in Seattle to see the high efficiency cars. Despite that we're fighting a war in the mideast oil fields and arguing in Congress about opening up a pristine area to oil development, NOT ONE auto manufacturer made fuel efficiency a high priority. The show was all about style and colors and power and handling.

We stayed long enough to talk to the Toyota Prius rep. -- a sweet young woman who giggled three times that she liked the color pink (no kidding) and the VW TDI rep. who took my name and said there weren't any diesels available right now. Honda didn't have a hybrid at the show. Both Ford and Chrysler had hybrids but the mileage was not spectacular (in the 30 mph range).

What's up with that?

Giggly Pink didn't know when the batteries in the Prius could be replaced or how much that would cost, but she did mention that it is now offered as an array of eighteen separate batteries for a "cost savings." Mr.Piffka said it sounded like you could count on at least one needing replacement at all times.

The VW TDI Beetle is small for my needs but that's what I'm aiming for right now. However even if I pre-order (which I can't do) it won't come in the color I want and I can't get it with leather interior. <shrug> I have to "hope" that when a TDI comes in, I am first in line, I guess.

Legally we can't even import a diesel car. They "might not be safe" and "won't meet USA standards."

I have to wonder what is going on with our government. Seems to me that if there were encouraging murmurs from our leadership, we'd see a good variety of diesel cars.

Signed,
Grumpy

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Here's a list of diesel cars that are available in the USA:

http://www.grassolean.com/?textFile=dieselcars

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Well, Consumer Reports (magazine, not net) did a fuel mileage issue a few months ago. The biggest disparity between epa mileage and actual driving mileage in city driving occured with the hybrids. City driving is where they are supposed to do the best in comparison with others.

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Absolutely hands down diesel for me. Here's a comparison for you. Try driving from L.A. to Flagstaff AZ. Its about 400 miles from sea level to 8000 feet with some gentle slopes and some mountains. Using a hybrid, the batteries run out fast and you're stuck with a little wimpy gas engine getting 30 mpg, you're losing speed, and endangering traffic. Now make the same trip in a VW TDI. You start with 100 hp, you end with 100 hp, and you get 50+ mpg, proven reliability of a diesel, fewer things to fail, and a cheaper purchase price.

I've never understood why hybrids even made it to the market. Every time you convert energy from one state to another, you lose a percentage of it. If your goal is to get 75 hp, why would you do it with a 90-hp engine charging a battery to make electricity to drive wheels? Why not just make a 75 hp motor? My wife's 97 Tercel gets better mileage than the hybrids.

The way diesels are made, they can be performance oriented with 500k-mile reliability or more. Cruise on over to some diesel forums and you'll find several Dodge guys with the 5.9 diesel pushing well over 1000 hp and 1800 lb-ft of torque on DAILY-DRIVEN trucks getting 25 mpg.
http://www.diesel-central.com/forums/default.aspx

But, too many dolphin huggers have decided that just because you can see diesel exhaust, it must be bad. The truth is, diesels are lower in all emissions categories than gas except NOx. The visible part of diesel exhaust is soot, which falls to the ground and biodegrades almost instantly in the presence of water.
http://www.nett.ca/faq_diesel.html

Just because you can see diesel exhaust doesn't make it bad, and just because you CAN'T see gas exhaust doesn't make it good.

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Pifka don't know if some of these were sold in California but eighties Daihatsu jeeps were mostly diesel.

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I definately prefer a diesel over a hybrid. The reason being is that I do all of my own auto repairs. I am just not comfortable with the hybrid technology yet. We really don't have a lot of data on how long these will last, what kind of repairs these may, the cost of the repairs, availablity of parts, etc.

I have done some reading on the hydrogen vehicles. I think that is going to be the next best technology in motor vehicles.

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I'm wondering if any poster here re the hybrids has driven one. I suspect not. I own a Prius, so here goes:

I get great mileage on the freeway, so I'm not sure what was meant about losing battery power on long trips. It hasn't happened. Nor are tune-ups a problem. I take it to a Toyota dealer. According to Toyota, the battery is supposed to last the life of the car, and I don't carry a spare.

City mileage, as others have noted, hasn't been close to what was promised, but I have to slog up a hill every day to get to work, and I doubt any car would give good mileage on that route.

But hey, I have nothing against diesels. Especially those that run on bio-diesel. Any alternative to the traditional gas engine is cool...

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I lean hybrid but I'm open to convincing. I wasn't aware that diesels were very widely available and have to wonder about maintenance. Perhaps it's the same as any other gas powered vehicle, but I don't know.

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There are additional diesel engines. Ford has 2 available CAT diesels (I know, everybody says Im nuts, I only drive one) the other is a smallish 3.o L CAT. The jeep commander is gonna have a diesel , but this car is Jeeps attempt at becoming a HUMMER. (They had a better car all along, they didnt need to emulate that piece of **** with the crappy gas mileage) The Hummer H1 has a version of the duramax, aspirated for underwater driving.

I just had one of my F250/s with the 6L taken into the garage to replace two bad glo-plugs. Maybe the little teeny cars dont have glo-plugs but the larger engines need em to start (Lotta Mass there)

One thing about the prii, theyre so damn ugly that they look like some kinda kids toy.

Ive been burning biodiesel and its a treat going B100 cause it smells grand, no longer that "behind the bus smell that gags you"

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D'artagnan wrote:

According to Toyota, the battery is supposed to last the life of the car, and I don't carry a spare.

It is interesting that they don't word their warranty that way though. Toyota gives you 8 years/100,000 miles of coverage on the batteries. Or is that how long they expect the life of the car to be?? Surprised

I'd prefer a diesel of the two choices although I wouldn't be put off by a hybrid. (I really like the bio-diesel concept but it would be to expensive to retro-fit my existing truck so.. maybe next time I'm buying.)

I end up following a few hybrid drivers home from work and they seem to be awfully slow to get things rolling. That may be all on the driver though. I haven't heard any hybrid owner complain about a lack of power form a full stop.

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As of now, diesel. But they haven't hit in the US too hard. I read a review on an Audi (either A6 or A8) diesel, and the thing supposedly was very quick. I know BMW makes some fast diesel cars too...they seem pretty fun to drive, very, very torquey. And they last longer than gas engines.

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fishin' wrote:

D'artagnan wrote:
According to Toyota, the battery is supposed to last the life of the car, and I don't carry a spare.

It is interesting that they don't word their warranty that way though. Toyota gives you 8 years/100,000 miles of coverage on the batteries. Or is that how long they expect the life of the car to be??

I'd prefer a diesel of the two choices although I wouldn't be put off by a hybrid. (I really like the bio-diesel concept but it would be to expensive to retro-fit my existing truck so.. maybe next time I'm buying.)

I end up following a few hybrid drivers home from work and they seem to be awfully slow to get things rolling. That may be all on the driver though. I haven't heard any hybrid owner complain about a lack of power form a full stop.

Hmmm...maybe I better look at my warranty again (re the battery).

As for power, I think there's enough juice to accelerate briskly from a stop, but Prius drivers tend to obsess about their mileage. Hence the languid starts. I've been guilty of this myself...

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Anyone know much about the new hybrid/diesels?

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I'd like to think I do, based on a considerable amount of reading, and being a car buff.

Several times I tried to get a discussion going about Hybrids vs Diesels or some such topic but no success. You may have a catchier title

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fishin. You dont have to do anything to a diesel to be able to burn biodiesel. Biodiesel is actually a lot more (%) of the active complex ester whereas petroleum diesel has a lot of lower distillates .
Biodiesel will actually clean your engine because of its cetane solubility and will probably, at least at first, clog up any filters you have. This will be a short time event, after which you will have a smooth running engine with actually less preignition (which is , after all the signature sound of a diesel)

Also biodiesel can be easily made (Im experimenting with small batches now because we have a source of organic acid cooking oils . The process is called esterification and its quite simple. Ive heard of farmers using "Janitor in a Drum" to do the reaction, and then they filter the whole mess and try to remove the resultant glycerine layer by a homade Burrette like contraption. Its really "bucket chemistry" it doesnt require any higher math than percentages and proportions.

If you look at the URL that was posted about"available diesel cars in the US". It had a biodiesel locator map. with the kinds you can buy . Its given a B notation like B20 is 20% biodiesel and B100 is pure chicken fying oil (made into a complex ester)

If you recall this "paint remover" that 3M made a few years ago (maybe 10) It was a product that was made from the waste stream of Duponts nylon process. They took the fatty acids and esterified them into this watery (thick and milky) crap that was supposed to remove paint. Didnt work for **** but it would run yer tractor.

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farmerman wrote:

fishin. You dont have to do anything to a diesel to be able to burn biodiesel.

I knew that but I have a gas engine in my truck so I'd have to retrofit to a diesel. Wink

That doesn't appear to be worth doing. My next ruck will be a diesel.

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D'artagnan,

How many tune ups have you had and how many miles does your Prius so far? I admittadly never worked on a hybrid. I am just curious what the tune up and maintenance costs are.

I would be more concerned about long term maintenance costs and difficulties. I don't know about you all but I haven't owned too many vehicles that I haven't driven over 100,000 miles before replacing it. Case in point: My chevy K2500 work truck has 136,000. My daughter's Celica GT has 173,000 and my wife's Chrysler Sebring convertible has just under 100,000. I'm not sure how far the last one will make it though. It's really not a very well built car.

I simply can't afford to replace cars every two or three years so I am forced to maintain and run them longer.

Thanks.

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maxpower,

I don't drive a lot, so I may not be the best source of the info you seek. I take the car in every six months for an oil change and maintenance, and the cost is about $30. I don't think this would too different even if I drove a lot more, but I can't say this for sure...

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Farmerman,

You are a tough nut to crack in regard to diesel engiines having to have glow plugs.

You said, 'Maybe the little teeny cars don't have glo-plugs but the larger engines need 'em to start. Lotta Mass there,)"
Acutally it's the other way around.

Chrysler Vehicles
Some Chrysler vehicles equipped with an optional diesel engine do not use glow plugs; they use an Intake Manifold Air Heater Grid to heat the air going into the cylinders.

It just so hppens that the Intake manifold air heater is superior to glow plugs.

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Hybrid or Diesel? Which one would you buy.

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