Do all of you out there believe in life after death?

So you are still panic stricken over your impending death though, right?

Aside from insults, now I understand I am both snide, arrogant and have committed acts of quaintness, but can you say anything about the fact that those very smart people with faith in God are relying on the same illusion that you are and that it has no more validity than the hundreds of other faiths the believers in God have so energetically stamped out, burned out and persecuted for generations. All those false beliefs being opposed by an equally false one.

Let me pick one that doesn't have it's very own supernatural creature in charge. Astrology, for example, beloved and believed in by millions, is it based on something less than your beliefs? Not really. It's a tissue of strung together beliefs designed, as is yours, to make the believer feel better and it's a fact that lots of very smart people believe in it. (Your definition of smart, not mine.)

So you have your deity believers and your numerologists and a host of others all doing one thing -fighting off the dread of death. It's okay. Death is scary, especially one's own, but lying to oneself to make yourself feel better momentarily is bad psychiatry.

Tell yourself the truth. This life, this one, is all that you will ever have. Live fully therefore so that others in their one life might remember what a good life it was.

Joe(I only do this to irritate you)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

So you are still panic stricken over your impending death though, right?

Aside from insults, now I understand I am both snide, arrogant and have committed acts of quaintness, but can you say anything about the fact that those very smart people with faith in God are relying on the same illusion that you are and that it has no more validity than the hundreds of other faiths the believers in God have so energetically stamped out, burned out and persecuted for generations. All those false beliefs being opposed by an equally false one.

Let me pick one that doesn't have it's very own supernatural creature in charge. Astrology, for example, beloved and believed in by millions, is it based on something less than your beliefs? Not really. It's a tissue of strung together beliefs designed, as is yours, to make the believer feel better and it's a fact that lots of very smart people believe in it. (Your definition of smart, not mine.)

So you have your deity believers and your numerologists and a host of others all doing one thing -fighting off the dread of death. It's okay. Death is scary, especially one's own, but lying to oneself to make yourself feel better momentarily is bad psychiatry.

Tell yourself the truth. This life, this one, is all that you will ever have. Live fully therefore so that others in their one life might remember what a good life it was.

Joe(I only do this to irritate you)Nation

Lemme ask you something, Joe (I only do this to play with myself) Nation:

If you came upon a group of distraught individuals (survivors of Katrina or 9/11, recently released POWs; or just hypothetically- those who historically had little but faith to hold onto like slaves or those impoverished in Appalachia or some urban areas whose hold onto life is bolstered almost solely by their faith that this life cannot be all there is), would you be just as willing to share your newsflash that they'd better carpe diem because this is all there is? I mean, I, and most others who bat this stuff around with the atheists and agnostics on A2K have emotional and intellectual wherewithal to deal with this silly absolute egocentric mindset, but what do you say to those for whom their faith provides the only relief from the pain of this world? I wonder, what would you say to them?

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Tell yourself the truth.

This life, this one, is all that you will ever have.

Live fully therefore so that others in their one life might remember what a good life it was.

and I would add:

"It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life - daily and hourly. Our answer must consist, not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." p.122

Above quotation reprinted from:
Frankl, Viktor E., Man's Search for Meaning, Washington Square Press, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1963.

Joe(here I go.)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

Tell yourself the truth.
Joe(here I go.)Nation

Some people really can't handle the truth. It's not just a cliche.

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Anyone CAN handle the truth; whether they choose to or not is whole other deal altogether. Plus, a lot of it depends on the delivery and method of communicating 'truth'. It also depends on the level of comprehension and strength/vulnerability of the person at that moment.

There are so many things to consider when helping someone out. However, I truly feel the lying is not the answer. And that is not just a cliche. Laughing

People aren't idiots. WE can usually sense (even if it isn't at an intellectual level, but more of a gut level) when someone is BSing us. It is not a kind thing to do. Glossing over doesn't help. It is fair to try and meet someone where they are though. That isn't lying. That is trying to communicate.

I have had experiences in my life where I was young and facing sudden death of family members. I remember so clearly how folks would come up to me and go "We're sorry. Just remember God has a plan for us all." etc. etc. etc. "God will bring good things".
I was so disguisted (still am to this day). Important Real People had passed and these idiots were talking about God? ha! Why not talk about what was actually going on? That is how you deal with trauma. You don't shove reality down: you have to face it and CHOOSE to go on living because YOU want to.

Those are my heartfelt thoughts about this Smile

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And what would you tell them, Snood, which was it? That they had been abandoned by their God, or was it that God was trying to tell them something? That the reason, for everything happens for a reason, that their house was destroyed, that their son was lost in the South Tower, that their lives continued in crushing poverty year after year had something to do with supernatural forces?

Or is the truth that things happen. That hurricanes are neither directed by God nor any other force save Nature. That cruel inhuman things are done to other humans by humans, (these just happened to be doing the work of their own version of God.) And that the rise up from poverty takes a lot of hard work, study, perseverance and faith in one's own abilities.

==
Personal note: I grew up in a town where it wasn't unusual for a grandmother to have a number tattooed on their arm. You learn a lot from neighbors. Years ago I worked with the poorest of the poor in America down in Snood's part of the country. You learn a lot when you are trying to teach. And I was just blocks away from the towers when they fell. We fed and watered and washed some of the thousands walking up 3rd Avenue that day covered in dust, a tiny effort in a maelstrom.

You learn a lot about humans being near them.

All of them really want one thing: to know the truth.

Joe( )Nation

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Joe and snood you both inspired me to write a poem. I call it "You Crazy Bro", it's in the original writing section in the Spontaneous Poems thread.

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Joe Nation wrote:

And what would you tell them, Snood, which was it? That they had been abandoned by their God, or was it that God was trying to tell them something? That the reason, for everything happens for a reason, that their house was destroyed, that their son was lost in the South Tower, that their lives continued in crushing poverty year after year had something to do with supernatural forces?

Or is the truth that things happen. That hurricanes are neither directed by God nor any other force save Nature. That cruel inhuman things are done to other humans by humans, (these just happened to be doing the work of their own version of God.) And that the rise up from poverty takes a lot of hard work, study, perseverance and faith in one's own abilities.

==
Personal note: I grew up in a town where it wasn't unusual for a grandmother to have a number tattooed on their arm. You learn a lot from neighbors. Years ago I worked with the poorest of the poor in America down in Snood's part of the country. You learn a lot when you are trying to teach. And I was just blocks away from the towers when they fell. We fed and watered and washed some of the thousands walking up 3rd Avenue that day covered in dust, a tiny effort in a maelstrom.

You learn a lot about humans being near them.

All of them really want one thing: to know the truth.

Joe( )Nation

You've got no monopoly on truth, bro. But you've cornered the market on hubris.
We have nothing else to discuss on this subject.

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Seems as good a time to add my NO as any.

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flushd wrote:

I have had experiences in my life where I was young and facing sudden death of family members. I remember so clearly how folks would come up to me and go "We're sorry. Just remember God has a plan for us all." etc. etc. etc. "God will bring good things".
I was so disguisted (still am to this day). Important Real People had passed and these idiots were talking about God? ha! Why not talk about what was actually going on? That is how you deal with trauma. You don't shove reality down: you have to face it and CHOOSE to go on living because YOU want to.

Those are my heartfelt thoughts about this

flushd, I don't want this to get lost without comment. You were obviously faced with the most difficult reality of your life up to that point. Some people hold on to their faith and are actually helped by the thoughts expressed to you. They think they are doing you a favor and bringing you comfort by expressing their faith to you. What they fail to realise, I think, is that it's only comforting if the person facing the loss has the same deep abiding faith. It was less than comforting to you and in their blind devotion they failed to realise that but I think they truly were trying to console you. Sharing one's faith in times of trauma is very helpful among those who already believe but, as you said and I agree with you, it's less than helpful to those who don't.

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No. Given the fact that drugs, disease and damage to specific parts of our brain cause loss of the conscious awareness, memory, and emotions that comprise our sense of self, it is not possible for any semblance of awareness to survive the death and decay of the physical brain that generates it.

If you think you have an immortal soul, where does it go when your brain is anesthetized or in dreamless sleep? Why does brain trauma affect personality and character? Why do Alzheimer's patients fail to recognize family members? Yes, it is comforting to believe that minds are magically restored and you will be reunited with loved ones when you die, but realistically, it just can't happen.

Belief in life after death requires rejection of basic scientific principles in favor of fairy tales and wishful thinking. What force holds the soul's energy together when it is separated from the brain? How are memories extracted from the neural networks of the dead brain, and what medium is used to store and access them? How can we "see" anything without sensors to physically intercept photons and interpret their patterns? How can we think without data and a mechanism to process it?

Yeah, right, I know, supernatural beings are not limited by laws or logic. God can do anything he wants. Just have faith. The laws are different in the spiritual plane/higher dimension. Our minds can't comprehend it now but everything will be made clear when we die. The physical world is just an illusion, and our essence returns to the Source. Or we get reincarnated. Or are judged and get new physical bodies and go to heaven/hell. Whatever makes you feel good.

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Quote:

You've got no monopoly on truth, bro. But you've cornered the market on hubris.
We have nothing else to discuss on this subject.

Did we have a discussion? I must have missed it. I did receive a wide variety of insulting remarks from you -I am snide, arrogant, etc-and not any thoughtful reasoning or anything that would approach discussion, now I have 'cornered the market on hubris' which used to be defined as 'that which would draw down the wrath of God', not exactly a match for my reality.

I am really kind of new at this, I only fired God from His position of being my guiding light and protector about eight months ago. He was doing a terrible job so I had to let Him go. The odd thing, and I truly mean this, is that now I live my life without guilt and I don't fear death at all. These reactions have truly been a surprise to me.

Why don't you cool it with the insults and give us with an answer to this questions:

Are you so afraid of death that you have to create an escape hatch? If your belief in life after life is not based on fear, what is it based on. What is so bad about being dead forever if your life has been full?

Anyone can answer. Apologies if this seems to be hyjacking.

Joe(your bro)Nation

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Tangentially, I'll add that while I agree with Joe and Terry and others, I know the matter of my body will break down and over much time become part of the air and soil..
as littleK alluded to, I think - a bit of recycling going on.

No, don't tell me... not smog..

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Terry wrote:

If you think you have an immortal soul, where does it go when your brain is anesthetized or in dreamless sleep? Why does brain trauma affect personality and character? Why do Alzheimer's patients fail to recognize family members?

I don't think you can draw an absolute conclusion from that Terry.

For example, what if the remaining neural activity within the brain actually prevents the "soul" or whatever you want to call it, from interacting with a different level of consciousness (or higher awareness).

Maybe you can only become aware of the afterlife once the activity of the brain has completely ceased (thus releasing whatever it is that we call "ourselves").

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It requires activity in specific areas of the brain to generate awareness. Free energy (or whatever magical substance the soul is made of) would quickly degrade into chaos without physical components to constrain it.

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Terry wrote:

It requires activity in specific areas of the brain to generate awareness.

Only awareness as we know it. I believe the whole point of a "soul" is something non-corporeal.

Terry wrote:

Free energy (or whatever magical substance the soul is made of) would quickly degrade into chaos without physical components to constrain it.

You are trying to make arguments from physics to infer the limits of "a magical substance". That doesn't make sense.

And even if the "substance" isn't magical, we don't know enough yet about the true nature of the universe to rule out the possibility of other forms of energy or dimensional dynamics which may interact with our atoms and neurons.

Or to take it a further extreme, we don't really know that our universe isn't just an elaborate sensory illusion.

Like you, I suspect that consciousness as we know it ceases when we die, but you can't rule out the possibility of unknown states of awareness which may be tied to aspects of the universe which we haven't discovered yet. There's a whole lot of dark energy out there, virtual particles which flux out of nothing, and quantum entanglement of things which should not be tangled.

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ossobuco wrote:

Tangentially, I'll add that while I agree with Joe and Terry and others, I know the matter of my body will break down and over much time become part of the air and soil..
as littleK alluded to, I think - a bit of recycling going on.

No, don't tell me... not smog..

<nodding> even if it takes 3 million years for the caskets to decompose. There's been a green burial movement - the whole shroud in the earth thing - of late. One or two cemeteries have allowed this. I love the idea. But, barring a green burial lot close to home, I'll be creamated. I guess. It's really not my number one option. I guess I should make it my life's (heh) work to get more green burial lots established.

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rosborne979 wrote:

You are trying to make arguments from physics to infer the limits of "a magical substance". That doesn't make sense.

And even if the "substance" isn't magical, we don't know enough yet about the true nature of the universe to rule out the possibility of other forms of energy or dimensional dynamics which may interact with our atoms and neurons.

Or to take it a further extreme, we don't really know that our universe isn't just an elaborate sensory illusion.

Like you, I suspect that consciousness as we know it ceases when we die, but you can't rule out the possibility of unknown states of awareness which may be tied to aspects of the universe which we haven't discovered yet. There's a whole lot of dark energy out there, virtual particles which flux out of nothing, and quantum entanglement of things which should not be tangled.

Then could it be possible that a higher intelligent power exists, hidden from our perception, within these as yet undiscovered aspects of the universe?

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Joe(gee I'm impressed by me)Nation:

Quote:

Are you so afraid of death that you have to create an escape hatch? If your belief in life after life is not based on fear, what is it based on. What is so bad about being dead forever if your life has been full?

I've had two experiences that I've never been able to figure as anything but genuine visitations from a living God. I suppose being dead forever wouldn't be so bad if one had had a full life, but I still like the idea of being alive forever. Anytime I get into this with anyone, it again becomes evident to me that arguing matters of faith is pretty fruitless. Especially if it is with someone who has not even a little willingness to believe.

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neologist wrote:

... Then could it be possible that a higher intelligent power exists, hidden from our perception, within these as yet undiscovered aspects of the universe?

Of course its possible; nothing of which we are aware exludes it.

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Do all of you out there believe in life after death?

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