3
   

The beginning of the end? (For Tony Blair)

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 02:40 am
From "What is the point of a front door?" in today's The Guardian:

Quote:
The benefits of a front door, in short, are manifold. It keeps pets in, and burgling riff-raff out. It provides a place to show off your house number and your taste in knockers. It even opens to let you in when you come home after a hard night out consuming art - unless you're the prime minister, in which case your front door has no keyhole and can only be opened from the inside. Those seeking an early end to Tony Blair's premiership would do well to remember this; all they need to do is get all his staff to go out at the same time.
:wink:

The latest issue of the "Fabian Review" (from the Fabian Society) has a couple of articles about "Britain after Blair", e.g.
- Cover story: 'Is Labour lost', by John Denham
- 'Five things our new PM should know about what women want', by Deborag Mattinson
- ...

Sounds very interesting, but arrived only just by post.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 02:43 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
From "What is the point of a front door?" in today's The Guardian:

Quote:
The benefits of a front door, in short, are manifold. It keeps pets in, and burgling riff-raff out. It provides a place to show off your house number and your taste in knockers. It even opens to let you in when you come home after a hard night out consuming art - unless you're the prime minister, in which case your front door has no keyhole and can only be opened from the inside. Those seeking an early end to Tony Blair's premiership would do well to remember this; all they need to do is get all his staff to go out at the same time.
:wink:

The latest issue of the "Fabian Review" (from the Fabian Society) has a couple of articles about "Britain after Blair", e.g.
- Cover story: 'Is Labour lost', by John Denham
- 'Five things our new PM should know about what women want', by Deborag Mattinson
- ...

Sounds very interesting, but arrived only just by post.


I remember being baffled by the Barbican once. There's no signpost from the Tube, and you have to get up on to the walkway to find the way in.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 05:13 am
McTag wrote:
I remember being baffled by the Barbican once. There's no signpost from the Tube, and you have to get up on to the walkway to find the way in.
Its easy now, you just follow the flowers and memorials to those who expired on the way.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 12:10 pm
Quote:
Brown regrets differences with PM

Monday September 25, 2006
Guardian Unlimited

Gordon Brown today laid out his credentials to be the next Labour leader and prime minister, telling the Labour party conference: "I know where I come from, what I believe and what I can contribute."

Mr Brown made a public admission of his "regret" over the "differences" between himself and Tony Blair, saying "where over these years, differences have distracted from what matters I regret that, as I know Tony does too". [..]

He told the conference he offered: "New Labour renewed, not just holding the centre ground, but modernising it in a progressive way too."

His 37-minute speech was received with an ovation lasting two minutes and 45 seconds.

The PM, who sat on stage alongside the chancellor, has so far pointedly refused to endorse any candidate as his successor. [..]

Mr Brown immediately stressed he would, if leader, want to "draw on all the talents of our party and country" - hinting he may offer cabinet jobs to personal rivals.

He also talked about his upbringing in a Scottish rectory "surrounded by books, sports, music and encouragement", opportunities denied to some of his friends. [..]

His speech ranged across the Middle East, global poverty, terror, education, the environment, citizenship, parliament, as well as his own childhood and his praise for Mr Blair.

As billed in advance, he suggested forming an independent executive to run areas like the NHS, in the manner in which he made the Bank of England independent. [..]

He suggested that decisions over peace and war should be matters for parliament, as well as making patronage over appointments arm's-length from government in the wake of the cash-for-honours saga.

And, while the police investigation into claims that Labour lenders were offered honours continues, Mr Brown said he thought home helps and carers "should be the first call for our honours system". [..]

On policy, he announced that the Treasury would be publishing a far-reaching study of the interaction of economics and climate change in the next few days.

After the tumultuous infighting of early September, a tentative truce between the Blair and Brown camps is so far holding in Manchester.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 12:11 pm
Is he gone yet?

Have they counted the spoons at No. 10?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 12:18 pm
Interesting, melancholic piece of historical background:

Quote:
Shut up - or else

A year after Walter Wolfgang was thrown out for heckling at Labour's annual conference, many complain that security has become too heavy handed. But it has always been like this, says Natasha Walter, whose father was jailed for protesting at Harold Wilson's 1966 conference

<snip>

My mother, Ruth, shared that sense of pride [..]. "Those were good times," she says now. "We felt as though it was worth raising our voices for what we believed, so we did. There were a lot of other people who thought like us, that it was worth having a go and trying to change things. There was an optimism about the way things were going. I never thought we'd end up with what we have now, 40 years on. We seem to have regressed in so many ways."


Simon Hoggart is in form on the Labour Party conference:

Quote:
Government the Tesco way

The Labour party conference opened yesterday, a crazed blend of the new and the traditional. The convention centre, in Manchester, looked as if it ought to be welcoming a meeting of computer systems operators, or travel agents, or, these days, even porn stars. [..]

But inside little had changed. It could have felt familiar to anyone who attended the last Labour conference in Manchester, in 1917. The report of the conference arrangements committee, a body that makes the Soviet politburo seem as open as the Big Brother house, referred to compositing and procedures on the contemporary motions criteria.

Only a few delegates could understand this stuff, but they knew they were being stitched up. "Conference is being gagged!" said a young man from the platform as he tried and failed to make a speech about Trident. A woman added, to loud cheers: "If democracy is good enough for the Middle East, it's good enough for the Labour party." Heavens, where has she been living? [..]

Then came the merit awards to people who have spent a lifetime in the party's service. A few years ago they were allowed to say a few words about their six decades in the movement, but they began to say disobliging things about the leader, so now they just pick up a plaque from him and push off.

Then we were back with Hazel, who looked shiny in scarlet. Everything about her was shiny: her cheeks, her forehead, clothes, her eyes, and most of all her teeth, which shone and smiled at us and at Mr Blair, who shone back in her direction. "He has been a great inspiration to us," she beamed.

She showed us a video. Apparently members of the cabinet had briefly worked alongside real workers. She had worked in a branch of Tesco, where she asked a young man if he had to sell what head office told him to stock, or if local customers could choose what they wanted. The young man looked evasive.

Well, if someone specifically asked for something, staff could write it on a bit of paper at the manager's office. Hazel thought this was fabulous. "Here the customer comes first, and that's really, really refreshing," she said.

And that summed up New Labour. It's government by Tesco: you have to have what head office tells you to have, but if you want something else, you write it on a bit of paper. And much good may it do you.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 12:42 pm
Quote:
Monday, 25 September 2006

The Brown Manifesto

Gordon Brown has been going through a process that is very familiar to me as a former policy director for the Conservative Party.

You develop plans and hope to keep them quiet until the moment when they can make the biggest impact. However, the pressure from the media is intense and soon the policies drip, drip, drip into the newspapers.

I thought I would start keeping a list of Brown's policy ideas and add to it as we hear more.

I will try to stick to specifics. This is a list of policies, not a summary of attitudes.

So, in today's Sunday Telegraph interview he talks of his determination to make the executive less powerful and more accountable to Parliament. That does not make the list. Too vague. But Nick Robinson gives a for instance - giving Parliament a vote on going to war. That is specific enough to make it. The Brown idea of double devolution is also too vague for inclusion at the moment.

I'm including reports that seem well sourced. Do you believe the reports? The great advantage of blogging is that you can click through to the original article and make up your own mind.

Brown manifesto update

Here's the latest version of the Brown policy list:

1. Give Parliament power to declare war. (Nick Robinson article)

2. Complete reform of House of Lords. (Nick Robinson article)

3. A new independent NHS board would take over the day-to-day running of the health service. (Nick Robinson article)

4. An economic plan for the Middle East. (Nick Robinson article)

5. Removing power from politicians to administer public services (not just the NHS as above) and giving them to civil servants.(Sunday Telegraph interview) This would include education. (Mail on Sunday report)

6. He wants a written constitution. (Sunday Times report)

7. He is considering abolishing the DTI. (Sunday Telegraph report)

8. He is considering the idea of parliament holding US-style appointment hearings to key public office posts. (Guardian report)

9. He promises to replace the Trident nuclear detterent, after pledging to retain Britain's nuclear detterent "in the long term". (Times report)

Has anybody spotted anything else that I've missed?

The original (click the link) has linkes for each point in that list.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 12:45 pm
I thought Browns speech quite good. But the one thing nearly everyone in the hall wanted to hear...are dying to hear....well if not actually dying then leaving the Labour party...is for the Leader to put some distance between the foreign policy of this country and that of G W Bush. It wont happen under Brown. He is more aware of the political realities than anyone. Britain can tinker around with domestic policy but when it comes to the international stage, we are actually part of the United States. We dont have an independent foreign policy anymore than we have an independent nuclear strike force. Its been like this since Roosevelt and Churchill produced the North Atlantic Charter. It was confirmed in 1956 with the Suez crisis. Most people like to pretend we are an independent sovereign nation but we are not. So in this respect Brown's speech makes no difference. He just confirmed Britain has no option but to follow American leadership. And now the easy cheap oil has gone, we are going to get even closer.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 03:37 pm
Well, he did apparently suggest that decisions on questions of war and peace - the power to declare war - should be the Parliament's. Whereas now it is the Cabinet's or Prime Minister's? That seems meaningful.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 03:39 pm
Quote:
Blair Worse Than Thatcher for Britons

Adults in Britain hold unambiguous views on the legacy of their current head of government, according to a poll by Communicate Research published in The Independent. 47 per cent of respondents think history will judge Tony Blair to have been a worse prime minister than Margaret Thatcher.

From 1979 to 1997, the Conservative party administered the British government under prime ministers Thatcher and John Major. 48 per cent of respondents believe Blair's tenure will be regarded as more positive than the government headed by Major. [..]

Polling Data

Do you think history will judge Tony Blair to have been a better or worse prime minister than Margaret Thatcher?

Better
30%

Worse
47%

The same
15%

Not sure
9%


Do you think history will judge Tony Blair to have been a better or worse prime minister than John Major?

Better
48%

Worse
26%

The same
17%

Not sure
10%


Source: Communicate Research / The Independent
Methodology: Interviews with 1,010 British adults, conducted on Sept. 8 and Sept. 9, 2006. Margin of error is 3 per cent.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 05:22 am
Blair made a great speech yesterday. In terms of the Labour party he is without equal as leader. In the country's history he will be ranked near the top. Under his tenure, there have been real improvements, though people are reluctant to acknowlege them. It was Blair's great misfortune, to be Prime Minister at a time when foreign affairs forced this country into following the American crusade into Iraq. And because Britain was not directly attacked on 9/11, and because the British people tend to be more sceptical about foreign adventures than our American cousins, Blair had to use all his considerable powers of persuasion to carry the country down a path on which he had already decided. In fact imo he had no option. Given the position of Britain in the world at the beginning of the 21st century, it is my contention that no British PM would have done anything other than firmly backed the United States. (The Conservative leader at the time said Blair was not being firm enough. The third party, Liberal Democrats, wanted to see negotiations through the UN continue, but backed the war with Iraq once it started...a fairly typical policy coming from a party that had no chance of actually forming a government.)

Blair's downfall was Iraq. He had to follow the Americans, and the Americans, not for the first time, screwed it up. Blair's monumental effort of selling the war to the people was exposed as a lie. Blair is a fundamentally decent guy, and people perceived this. But a sea change in this perception co incided with a sense of betrayal over such an important issue as peace or war in Iraq.

But just think for a moment if the Americans had not screwed it up. Supposing the neocons were right and coalition forces were greeted with open arms. Supposing Iraq had been quickly transformed from a vicious dictatorship to a modern pro western multicultural but muslim democracy. Isnt that what we set out to achieve? Dont some people think it still a possibility? OK it hasn't worked out quite that way, but if it had, Bush and Blair would have been hailed as heros. Blair put all his money on Bush, and Bush turned out to be an idiot.

Of course the real reason for invading Iraq was to control its oil resources. But if we had got rid of Saddam, and built a new Iraq in the process, would that have been such a bad thing? Amid all the rejoicing, who would care if there never were any wmd? Who would be churlish enough to say the liberation of Iraq was actually founded on a false premise?

But the gamble didnt pay off, and Blair has to carry the can over something he had no choice. He was a truly great leader but fate dealt him a cruel hand. A pity imo.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 06:45 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Blair made a great speech yesterday. ... ...


Some reactions of today's media:


Sun: So who is sorry now?
Telegraph: Blair's swansong shows he's a tough act to follow
The Guardian: *Going, going, not quite gone"
The Guardian - Polly Toynbee: Charm and eloquence. But a missed chance
The Guardian: A storming send-off - but the silences show why he has to go
The Independent: The long goodbye
The Mail: Requiem for a hollow man
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 09:59 am
Thanks for all the links W

any comments, from anyone? about Blair and my assessment above?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 10:24 am
I'm really not sure about Blair - "Yo, Blair" certainly would have been a point to reconsider his position ...

Generally, I suppose, your correct with your assessment ... ... ... when you agree that he wasn't a great leader through the last couple of months or even years: "an electoral genius never sure what to do with power", as Sunder Katwala, the General Secretary of the Fabian Society put it.

Still, all talk about Blair is dominated by Iraq ...
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 10:31 am
ok take 9/11 out
take Afghanistan out
take Iraq out

(none of the above in Blair's control)

then was Blair a great PM?

I would say yes.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 03:11 pm
I would say no.

Under his leadership - under the first Labour governments since the 70s! - economic inequality has actually boomed even further.

Under his leadership a fetishisation of privatisation has led to a torrent of impractical, wasteful policies (the latest example: handing over the supply agency of the NHS to a German transport company).

Under his leadership and that of his proteges Blunkett and Reid, a wave of illiberal legislation has swept the country. Panic about law & order was purposefully stirred up time & again, only so the government could then score poll points with populist policies.

Under his leadership, fear and resentment of asylum-seekers was fanned rather than defused.

Under his leadership corruption has gone back up to the same levels it had gotten to under Major (eg cash-for-peerages).

Under his leadership cynicism about politicians has, incredibly, soared even further. The Thatcher era was one of blatant disregard of public opinion; but Blair was too vain for that. So instead we got spiralling spin, potentially even more harmful for trust in democracy. Blair is the master of spin. In the end nobody could possibly know what he meant or didnt mean anymore, what was truth, spin or lie.

Under his leadership, government transparency was blocked whereever possible. Government policies became the domain of small cliques of political consultants around Blair personally, with the Parliament, the Labour MPs and even the Cabinet reduced to rubberstampers.

Under his leadership, unprecedented government spending was wasted on overpaid consultants, recruited by the thousands to do jobs government employees would have done for a quarter of the price. Again, a question of the fetishisation of anything "private" costing the British tax payer dearly.

Under his leadership, the Labour Party was dismantled as organisation. Any semblance of intra-party democracy was eradicated. Any potential of someone saying anything off-message was micromanaged away, up to where those aging party activists who'd be called on to the stage to be honored were barred from saying anything, because they might criticize New Labour.

As a result, the Labour Party has hemorraged members at unprecedented rate. It is no longer a living body, rooted in every community; it is a mere channel for PR campaigns. Under his leadership, British politics has Americanised more rapidly than that of any other European country.

Under his leadership, the economy ... no, wait. There was no Blair leadership on the economy. That was effectively delegated to Downing Street 11.

Under his leadership, global poverty ... no, wait. The UK did great work on the fight against global poverty, but it was all Gordon Brown's project.

Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to tackle electoral reform was squandered.

Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to ease Britain's existence within the EU was squandered. Instead, the EU was treated as handy scapegoat for anything that went wrong.

Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to make a bold step forward on environmental policy was squandered.

Under his ... ah, I'm tired of typing.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 03:19 pm
So let me return to bringing other people's impressions again instead..:

An otherwise deliriously raving Guardian editorial on Blair's speech also notes that:

Quote:

The long goodbye

[..] The prime minister steered clear of the things that have gone wrong with his government, though these include episodes so significant that they will determine how he is seen by history. An undercurrent of evasiveness has run through his premiership and it was evident again yesterday when he asserted "terrorism isn't our fault. We didn't cause it". That slippery claim is not entirely true of Iraq and he would have strengthened his case had he shown a little humility. He also talked of a country that was "aching for change" in 1997 but did not admit that, from honours to the environment, his government's record has not always matched those hopes. His belated conversion to the benefits of regulation (green restrictions on business, on the advertising of junk food) was notable, as was his confusion over whether this was "old" or "new" labour. [..]


And Simon Hoggart remains more down-to-earth from the start, and fillets Blair's speech in his own, anecdotal way:

Quote:
I'm right, you're wrong, and the voters know it ...

Sketch
Simon Hoggart

[..] The speech was well-delivered, and well-received, but it was classic Blair. He could have delivered chunks at any time in the past 12 years. The gist was, as it generally is: "I'm right, you're wrong, and the voters know it." On education, reforming the NHS, identity cards and even Iraq he read them a crisp and businesslike lecture. There were the usual verb-free sentences - 79 in all - which in the past implied commitments without making promises. Now they evoke achievements that may or may not have occurred: "The end of waiting in the NHS. Historic. Transforming secondary schools ... Historic."

And there were those clunking sentences that make you ask what on earth he could possibly mean, though you haven't time to work it out because the speech has swept on. "The USP of New Labour is aspiration and compassion reconciled." Eh? "Ten years ago, if we talked pensions, we meant pensioners." What was that about? "The danger is failing to understand that New Labour in 2007 won't be New Labour in 1997." Sorry, run that past me again. "Ten years on, our advantage is time, our disadvantage, time." Lost me there, old cock. [..]

The organisers tried to whip up a frenzy which was almost, but not quite there. Before he arrived there was a "spontaneous" demonstration in which members of the audience held up hand-written posters: "We love you, yeah, yeah, yeah", "Too young to retire" and simply "Thank you". It was like waiting for a very cuddly version of Stalin. We saw a video in which ordinary folk and celebrities gave thanks for the existence of Blair. One old lady said: "I'm grateful for the £200 fuel allowance - it's better than a woolly hat." And they claim the British have a poverty of ambition! [..]


On a complete and trivial aside, by the way, Hoggart notes something else too, which had already struck me as just so silly:

Quote:
Then he arrived and ran to the podium. Party leaders have to run now, to show how fit they are.

Here's a photo to go with that observation:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2006/09/24/blair.jpg

Does anyone else find this totally toecurling? I mean - my immediate gut reaction: act your age, man! Dont you realise how much of a fool you're making of yourself? Respect yourself, dont act like a parody.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 03:20 pm
Oh, fer crying out loud..

Quote:
Blair may delay exit, says Johnson

Alan Johnson suggested today that Tony Blair might stay in office for longer than expected following his triumphant conference speech yesterday.
Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme whether Mr Blair's departure date was now "further away than some people thought when they came to Manchester", the education secretary responded: "Oh, well, I think so.

"I mean if the prime minister says, 'I want to use the rest of my time to try to resolve the Middle East problem in the same way as we tried to tackle the Northern Ireland problem,' I think it suggests he's not talking about a couple of weeks; it's a big problem."
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 07:27 am
Quote:
I would say no.
well you would

Quote:
Under his leadership - under the first Labour governments since the 70s! - economic inequality has actually boomed even further.
not true Labour has been redistributive, especially re child poverty

Quote:
Under his leadership a fetishisation of privatisation has led to a torrent of impractical, wasteful policies (the latest example: handing over the supply agency of the NHS to a German transport company).
the extra money going into the NHS was made conditional on reform. If DHL can save the taxpayer money why is that wasteful? It makes good economic sense too...reduces the psbr. (public sector borrowing requirement)

Quote:
Under his leadership and that of his proteges Blunkett and Reid, a wave of illiberal legislation has swept the country. Panic about law & order was purposefully stirred up time & again, only so the government could then score poll points with populist policies.
perhaps populist policies is what the population want?

Quote:
Under his leadership, fear and resentment of asylum-seekers was fanned rather than defused.
thats ridiculous, the govt did everything they could to stop people feeling resentful of asylum seekers...unsuccessfully.

Quote:
Under his leadership corruption has gone back up to the same levels it had gotten to under Major (eg cash-for-peerages).
you think. you have no proof. There has been no brown paper envelopes with bundles of cash for asking parliamentary questions. Labour in govt. does not suffer from endemic corruption, which was the impression under the Tories.

Quote:
Under his leadership cynicism about politicians has, incredibly, soared even further. The Thatcher era was one of blatant disregard of public opinion; but Blair was too vain for that. So instead we got spiralling spin, potentially even more harmful for trust in democracy. Blair is the master of spin. In the end nobody could possibly know what he meant or didnt mean anymore, what was truth, spin or lie.
nobody? well he did so you are wrong

Quote:
Under his leadership, government transparency was blocked whereever possible. Government policies became the domain of small cliques of political consultants around Blair personally, with the Parliament, the Labour MPs and even the Cabinet reduced to rubberstampers.
sadly true, because too many were rubber brained as well as rubber stamps.

Quote:
Under his leadership, unprecedented government spending was wasted on overpaid consultants, recruited by the thousands to do jobs government employees would have done for a quarter of the price. Again, a question of the fetishisation of anything "private" costing the British tax payer dearly.
a quarter the price eh? did you know that three quarters of all statistics are made up on the spot nimh?[/quote]

Quote:
Under his leadership, the Labour Party was dismantled as organisation. Any semblance of intra-party democracy was eradicated. Any potential of someone saying anything off-message was micromanaged away, up to where those aging party activists who'd be called on to the stage to be honored were barred from saying anything, because they might criticize New Labour.
they still got their medals didnt they?

Quote:
As a result, the Labour Party has hemorraged members at unprecedented rate. It is no longer a living body, rooted in every community; it is a mere channel for PR campaigns. Under his leadership, British politics has Americanised more rapidly than that of any other European country.
In your opinion. Might be mine too but I couldnt say.

Quote:
Under his leadership, the economy ... no, wait. There was no Blair leadership on the economy. That was effectively delegated to Downing Street 11.
prime ministers appoint chancellors to manage the finances, its called delegation. Labour has a first class record on the economy.

Quote:
Under his leadership, global poverty ... no, wait. The UK did great work on the fight against global poverty, but it was all Gordon Brown's project.
ditto above

Quote:
Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to tackle electoral reform was squandered.
you mean the first past the post system? Now why would labour want to do that when it kept returning them with good majorities?

Quote:
Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to ease Britain's existence within the EU was squandered. Instead, the EU was treated as handy scapegoat for anything that went wrong.
oh dear oh dear, a politician finding a scapegoat. What a sensitive little soul you are nimh. The big question was whether the EU would reform towards the UK model, not the other way around. In fact it looks like the UK model is winning out.

Quote:
Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to make a bold step forward on environmental policy was squandered.
Saving the planet is more than a one man job nimh. The UK govt gave a lead on emission tradings...supported kyoto and a whole bunch more. Yes could have done more but environmental concerns are right at the heart of govt policy now.

Quote:
Under his ... ah, I'm tired of typing.


Then what did you think of Bill Clinton's address in Manchester nimh?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 10:47 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
well you would.

Well you asked <shrugs> You didnt specify you only wanted answers from people who'd roughly agree with you. Since I'm from a passionate Labour family background (be it in Holland), I thought my take woulda been as appropriate as anyone's.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Under his leadership - under the first Labour governments since the 70s! - economic inequality has actually boomed even further.
not true Labour has been redistributive, especially re child poverty

Its not untrue at all.

Yes, the Blair governments have invested in fighting child poverty, and in absolute terms, the poorest have become less poor. And for that I will definitely credit these governments. Along with serious increases in public investment in education and health care, it is the prime thing they can be complimented for. Like many people, however, I believe that these measures, championed by Brown, were taken in spite of, rather than thanks to Tony Blair.

My point, however, explicitly was that economic inequality has only grown further. And it has. The poor may have gone up a little bit, but the rich have gone up a lot. The gap has only become bigger. ANd I have a problem with that, yes.

Steve 41oo wrote:
the extra money going into the NHS was made conditional on reform. If DHL can save the taxpayer money why is that wasteful? It makes good economic sense too...

In many cases privatisation has not made economic sense at all. Thats the argument with the DHL thing too: not just that it means firing people here (or there, rather), but that its actually only going to make work more complicated and inefficient. Thats why I speak of fetishisation of privatisation - it seems to be forced through as often as not as a matter of ideology rather than purely one of efficiency.

The railways privatisation didnt happen under Blair's watch, but it's a perfect example of how privatisation meant a loss of ease in use for consumers, at a higher price, with dropping service punctuality, and worsening safety standards, for an extensive post-privatisation period. With further stark losses of public transport market share vis-a-vis car traffic as a result.

Steve 41oo wrote:
perhaps populist policies is what the population want?

That doesnt necessarily make it good. <shrugs>

You asked whether we thought he was a good Prime Minister. A good PM is not always one who acts on every opinion poll. That was both Blair's and Clinton's flaw. Sometimes leadership asks for maintaining standards, or for pushing back against public opinion rather than fanning it on for short-term electoral gain.

Otherwise why not, say, bring back the death penalty too?

Steve 41oo wrote:
thats ridiculous, the govt did everything they could to stop people feeling resentful of asylum seekers...unsuccessfully.

Nonsense. Successive Home Secretaries have consistently tried to win popularity points as no-nonsense tough guys by banging the drum about abusers of the system, economic refugees, about their set targets for sending people back, about limiting possibilities of appeal, about how stern and ruthless they would be on all these counts (they are sending asylum-seekers back to Zimbabwe for Chrissakes) - and conversely, they rarely ever spoke about all the real refugees that have received asylum, about their life stories, about all the real people of flesh and blood we are talking about.

No mistake, there are both kinds of asylum-seekers. But by the proportion of speeches and press talking points they choose to spend on each kind, the ministers play their own prominent role in how the media report about them (in the British case, scandalously) and how the people come to perceive them. If even the minister responsible for asylum-seekers only ever is quoted and pictured about how many asylum-seekers he would deport and reject, about how stern he would be, what other impression are people supposed to come away with than that those are indeed a shifty lot, those asylum-seekers?

And then there was the whole distribution policy, which sent refugees across the country by quotas, often placing them in hostile, problematic areas where there was no community of their own kin that could help them accomodate - a recipe for neighbourhood clashes, which promptly occured.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Blair is the master of spin. In the end nobody could possibly know what he meant or didnt mean anymore, what was truth, spin or lie.
nobody? well he did so you are wrong

Huh?

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Under his leadership, unprecedented government spending was wasted on overpaid consultants, recruited by the thousands to do jobs government employees would have done for a quarter of the price.
a quarter the price eh? did you know that three quarters of all statistics are made up on the spot nimh?

Yeah that was a mostly rhetorical guess by heart of course. But I did post an article that had the actual numbers in this thread, so I'm sure you could easily find it back.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Under his leadership, the economy ... no, wait. There was no Blair leadership on the economy.
prime ministers appoint chancellors to manage the finances, its called delegation. Labour has a first class record on the economy.

First of all, but this goes to the debit of Brown rather than Blair for the reason I mentioned here - there are questions enough about the economy too.

Britain is more prosperous than ever - but its living on borrowed money. Its more prosperous than ever because it has been spending money (the government on the citizens and the citizens on themselves) that it doesnt have; public and private debt has soared. Thats why the UK is down to ninth in world economic competitiveness, according to a new ranking this week (see my other thread). Thats why people are warning (see analyses earlier in this thread) that Brown might inherit the crown only just in time to see the house of cards collapsing upon him.

I dont know enough about all that to know for sure, I'm no economist. But unambiguous boasts about first class economic policies might be a bit premature.

Secondly, dont tell me with a straight face that Thatcher, for example, delegated economic policy to her Chancellors in the wholesale way Blair has done.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Under his leadership, global poverty ... no, wait. The UK did great work on the fight against global poverty, but it was all Gordon Brown's project.
ditto above

What, Britain's task in fighting global poverty is just the natural domain of the Chancellor? Since when is it only normal that the Chancellor does whole chunks of foreign affairs that the PM isnt too interested in?

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to tackle electoral reform was squandered.
you mean the first past the post system? Now why would labour want to do that when it kept returning them with good majorities?

Because it's the same system that kept Thatcher and Major in absolute government power for eighteen consecutive years - even though they never got more than 44% of the vote. Reform would mean Labour would never again get a carte blanche to do whatever it wanted - but neither would the Conservatives anymore.

And that'd be good for the country. Thats what you were asking about. Whether Blair was a good PM. A good leader for the country's long-term interests, thus - not just an agile winner of power. The current system is undemocratic - making it possible for Labour last year, for example, to get exclusive say in government even after it got just a little over a third (!) of the vote.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Any potential of someone saying anything off-message was micromanaged away, up to where those aging party activists who'd be called on to the stage to be honored were barred from saying anything, because they might criticize New Labour.
they still got their medals didnt they?

<shrugs> I just think its a pretty pathetic illustration of Blair's New Labour control-mania. I mean, how petty can you get?

They've torn the soul out of the party, in exchange for extra efficiency for their spin and media machine. Thats good for electoral prospects in the short-term, yes. But its bad for the party - and democracy itself - in the long term. And thats what I'd never forgive Blair for doing.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Quote:
Under his leadership, opportunity upon opportunity to ease Britain's existence within the EU was squandered. Instead, the EU was treated as handy scapegoat for anything that went wrong.
oh dear oh dear, a politician finding a scapegoat. What a sensitive little soul you are nimh.

Wow, getting all nasty and personal now, are we? Rolling Eyes

And yes, a responsible politician would have considered the task of leadership more than just sailing along with public prejudice. Especially on this count. With the hysteria that marks discussion of the EU in England, someone is going to have to show some leadership some time.

Steve 41oo wrote:
Then what did you think of Bill Clinton's address in Manchester nimh?

I didnt see it. From what I read he gave quite the motivational, morale-boosting speech, as he always does for friends and allies. He managed to flirt with 3,000 people siomultaneously, as one Cabinet minister afterwards said, in awe. Thats Clinton for you. He can make anyone feel wonderful about themselves if he wants to - nobody can do that better.
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