georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 12:58 pm
Francis wrote:
George, disagreeing for the disagreeing sake?

It was this way for the last 60 years...


Perhaps, but if so I am not aware of it. It does seem to me that several important principles have been damaged. and that overall the situation has been made worse. I do recognize the resilience of the French democracy over several analogous difficulties since 1945. However there are also several prominent examples in the past century of the failure of French governments and the popular will to find solutions to growing threats and problems, resulting in worse difficulties later,

I believe social and economic reform is badly needed in France (and most of Western Europe) and that recent events have, at least, set back the process of finding a solution.

The U.S. has roughly analogous challenges with respect to immigration and energy consumption. Our willingness so far to face facts and deal with these issues is nothing to brag about either. We also have a Social Security (or public pension) system that, in terms of current demographics, is unsustainable. Moreover our attempts to deal with it - both in the legislature and in the public mind - have so far been unsuccessful. However, the political process, including the interaction between Executive and Legislative branches, is working, and I believe we will find tolerable solutions through it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 01:31 pm
One of the effects of these three months of demonstrations and "voter revolts" certainly is - and I wonder, if you find this negative as well, George - that the French youth got politically active (again).
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 02:41 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
One of the effects of these three months of demonstrations and "voter revolts" certainly is - and I wonder, if you find this negative as well, George - that the French youth got politically active (again).


You may well be correct in this. However, I still find it amazing that an appetite for state-controlled protectionism could be so strong among people just starting their adult lives. Moreover their chosen political activity, riots and closing public buildings and systems, was not exactly what I would wish them to choose or sustain.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 10:54 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Moreover their chosen political activity, riots and closing public buildings and systems, was not exactly what I would wish them to choose or sustain.


Hmm, there's a big ocean between our (political) cultures.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 01:48 pm
Well, since nothing dramatic happens in Paris/France, I'd like to post a comment from a British newspaper, which I think to be related to this thread and an answer to some previous responses.







Comment by Francis Wheen, In „Evening Standard", Late Westend Edition,
Tuesday April 18, 2006, page 12

Quote:
Sorry, but the French simply do it better

Imagine you are a Parisian visiting London. Even before you step off the Eurostar, a conductor announces that you have reached Waterloo. You might wonder: are these British trying to tell me something?.

You'd be right. „A certain joy, it is true, fills the heart of all free-born Englishmen at the sight of a French government on the ropes," you read in the current Spectator, which accuses your compatriots of „neuralgia, paranoia and irrationality".

The turn to the Economist. „Some are wondering if the country will ever be able to reform," it sights. „Perhaps the French are just not up to the sacrifices that change imposes."

The metaphors of British pundits are as riotous as Parisian students. France is „a selfimposed value of tears", afflicted by a „crippling sclerosis" because it refuses to „swallow the nasty medicine of change". (Perhaps given French habits, a suppository of change would be more acceptable.)

The contrast between Gallic disaster and British triumph couldn't be starker. But hang on a minute: if France is so terminally sclerotic, why have 20,000 Britons chosen to take up a permanent residence there?

A few answers spring to mind. France offer excellent healthcare, affordable housing and efficient public transport. Families still eat together at the dinner table - and eat proper food.

My friend Philippe Auclair, a French musican and writer, suggests several more in his new book. Tony Blairs kingdom. Britain's catastrophic level of personal debt - vats credit-card bills, continual remortgaging - is unimaginable in France. Nor would French parents tolerate an education system that produces school-leavers who can barely read or write.

True, Parisian youngster occasionally take to the streets to assert themselves. But in Britain this happens throughout the land every Friday and Saturday night, with no political intent but plenty of vomit.

Although Auclair's portrait of Britain as a hellish inferno of binge-drinkers and fat-cats may be hyperbolic, it's a useful corrective to the hysterical Frogbashing propaganda of recent weeks. And if you assume he's an incorrrible anglophobe, you're wrong. He is married to an Englishwoman, has lived in London 20 years and does the Independent's cryptic crossword every day. He even plays cricket.

But then almost every assumption we make about ourselves or the French is false. France, the birthplace of revolutions, is actually a profoundly conservative nation wich resents being ordered to adopt „the Anglo-Saxon model".

The British, who supposedly reserve tradition, are giddy neophiliacs who deface their citycapes and abandon civilised habits without so much as a passing sigh. Is it any wonder that some of us still yearn to catch the next train to the Gare du Nord?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 01:50 pm
Unfortunately, neither the report from the Spectator nor that one from the Economist, mentioned below, are online for free.


Report about the mentioned book:

The Sunday Times:

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 08:08 pm
As someone wrote in this Sunday's New York Time - Week In Review section, isn't it a bit ironic that French youth were prepared to threaten anarchy to protect socially, womblike security?
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:24 am
French people don't bother about contradictions and are usually good at irony...
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 04:52 am
Francis wrote:
French people don't bother about contradictions and are usually good at irony...



I will agree that a well-developed sense of itrony is a particularly useful thing in the present circumstances.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 04:55 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Francis wrote:
French people don't bother about contradictions and are usually good at irony...



I will agree that a well-developed sense of itrony is a particularly useful thing in the present circumstances.


I can feel you have no irony in you comment, George...

Besides, we are not good at itrony.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 05:03 am
Francis wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Francis wrote:
French people don't bother about contradictions and are usually good at irony...



I will agree that a well-developed sense of itrony is a particularly useful thing in the present circumstances.


I can feel you have no irony in you comment, George...

Besides, we are not good at itrony.


Amazing concentration of contradictions here! Ironic!

We all need a feeling for irony to deal with the circumstances we face. I don't think that France's political failure in dealing, so far, with this issue is unique. However it was both vivid and, in my view, damaging to French interests. I still have a hard time understanding the appetite of young people, at the start of their adult lives, for the protections of a state apparatus that promises to regulate their lives. It seems very counterintuitive to me.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 05:12 am
Seems you only understand irony, when it's yours, George.

The amazing thing is that I agree with you on the last part of your comment, about youth..
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 05:15 am
Francis wrote:
Seems you only understand irony, when it's yours, George.


Espeially, when he's in bad mood, when it's late, when ...
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 06:32 am
Damn !!! I see myself as among the most understanding, balanced and compassionate of posters here.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 07:38 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Damn !!! I see myself as among the most understanding, balanced and compassionate of posters here.


Pure itrony, I suppose. :wink:
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 03:05 pm
Only a little! That may be the hell of it. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 01:28 am
Might be, the demonstrations changed the view of some French.

On the other site, it certainly polarised the country even more.

Latest polls:

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7807/zwischenablage025uf.jpg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 03:09 pm
The French law replacing a controversial,First Job Contract (CPE) came into force on Saturday after being published by the Official Gazette.
Enacted Apr 13 by President Jacques Chirac, the law 2006-497 on "Access of Youth to Active Business Life" is the result of the pressure put on Government by citizens, unions and student organizations.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 09:29 pm
Yet another case of the slaves learning to love their chains.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Apr, 2006 12:20 am
Hmm, in representative democracies the state is quasi owened by the cititens - that's how it should work: lawwomen and -men working for their voters Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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