Arguments for religion

Nah, evolution is still a theory, and yeah, religion is crap (if it doesn't anything for you).

Atom, speaking atheist to atheist, you, we, have to come to terms with one thing: If there is no higher purpose - why do we bother living at all?

Personally, I deal with it by saying, 'Hey, I'm only here once I'm going to enjoy it.' My empathy kicks in so I don't go thumping people who annoy me. But I know I'll die, that within a couple of generations it will be like I never existed, and, even if I was the most famous philanthropist in the world and was adored for all eternity it would still mean nothing to me because I would no longer exist.

That's a big step for most people to take. I think that come the day when there is some proof there is no god there will be some social chaos as people realise there is no 'final judgement'.

So, as much as religion annoys us it does keep a fairly large sector of society quiescent, if not happy.

So chill. Foment the positive, fight the negative and remember many atheists were raised christian. When I'm feeling positive I believe that the truth outs and intelligence wins. And just because people believe stuff isn't true doesn't mean their intentions aren't good.

Everyone changes their mind about something, which is, effectively, acknowledging that you believed an untruth. We've all been there.

Oh, and then there's the red wine.

Re: Arguments for religion
Where to begin. First, before addressing anything I want to just state for the record that we obviously disagree about God and it is not my intention nor plan to get into any type of running argument with you. I've never seen the point in that type of thing here which is why I very rarely respond to posts here in religion anymore. But a couple of things struck me about your post that I felt the need to respond to. Maybe it will clarify some questions you have, maybe it will make you think I am just another Jesus freak nut case :wink: , but here goes anyway.



Your initial question is basically why do bad things happen. You specify a particular natural disaster. You somehow think that God's failure to prevent a natural disaster makes Him either non-loving or unable to stop the event. You leave out the possibility that God placed the natural laws in motion and due to man's rebellion against Him simply allows nature to take its course. I love my childred and I hate to see them get hurt. But I choose not to place my children in some kind of protective bubble to keep them from getting hurt because that would also keep them from enjoying this world we live in. Why should God do the same to us? To experience the beauty of nature we must have nature.

As far as the devil goes, I think it is God's intention to take care of him. But of course, I have only the Bible and my faith to go by on that one, and both items would be totally disputed by you, so there is not much I can say on that one.



Do you see your life as being a waste? You say we disagree with the theory of evolution because, in effect, by agreeing with it our lives are a waste since that would indicate our belief in God is in error. So, in essence, someone like you who does not believe in God must feel their life is a waste. There are lots of holes in evolutionary theory. Whether you choose to acknowledge that there are holes or not is entirely up to you. Do these holes necessarily prove that God exists? No, it just means there are holes in the theory. I believe that this theory has not explained how life first began. God's Word explains this. You choose to believe that the holes in the theory do not leave any room for believing the theory wrong and it automatically means God does not exist.



I have known many children who were raised christian who later in life rebelled against Christ. I bet you can find a few in this forum. In my family, we were raised to believe in God. I have one brother who no longer believes. I guess the brain-washing did not take. Personally, I have chosen to believe based on many factors. But, getting back to your thoughts, if the only people who believed in God were those who are brain-washed, why do so many people come to believe in God later in life, when they are no longer being brain-washed by their families? Sorry, but your brain-washed theory is nonsense.



I understand your frustration here. There are some cults, claiming to be Christian, whose members are constantly pushing for new converts. Heck, there are some Christians who go to the extreme in trying to push people into a belief in Christ. But I think a majority of Christians take the attitude that I do. I am only responsible to live the life Christ has called me to live. I am responsible for pointing others to Him, not nagging someone to death into a belief in Christ. God gave us all the freedom to decide for ourselves whether or not to believe in Him.

Well, don't know if I have been any help here or not. You know how it is sometimes, you know what idea you want to express but getting the idea on paper is sometimes tough, unless you take a good bit of time in formulating what you want to say. As may be obvious, I have written my responses "off the cuff".

Oh, and welcome to A2K. Take care and have a good day.

Re: Arguments for religion


I see. Free speech for you but not for others. Right? You never try to persuade your relatives that there's no god. Right?

You think it's ok for you as an agnostic to raise your kids to believe as you do, but not ok for a Christian to do the same. Do I understand your position correctly?

Hey Real Life,

Isn't just amazing how so many rush to blame God for natural disasters? And unfortunately, yes, they are also the ones that think we Christians are the scum of the earth because we try to live our lives by the teachings of Christ.

And the double standard of it's okay for them to badmouth us and tell us what hogwash our faith is and them wanting us to not saying anything about Christianity or not to raise our children that way, etc., just blows my mind.

But, the more I read in these threads from those that do not believe, the more I know that there is a God and the non-believers anger just comes from their fear that there really is a God and they are speaking against Him instead of for Him.

If they really believed there was no God, I think they would probably not say much at all.

Come on Momma,

I am upset with Christians becuase they don´t ¨try to live their lives by the teachings of Christ¨. What is called ¨Christianity¨ today has nothing with forgiveness, compassion, helping the poor or loving your enemies.

Christians today are too busy supporting the killing of criminals, owning guns, ending welfare and condemning gays to be worried about feeding the hungry or caring for the poor.

I would not be upset with a true Christian (who actually believed the teachings of Jesus). I certainly haven´t seen any evidence of one here.

Someone who really turned the other cheek, loved their enemies, worked to make peace, stood up for the poor and immigrants while not judging others would be a good thing.

Christians today are doing real damage to what was Biblically the work of Christ. Christians are at the forefront of stripping rights from undocumented workers (who are among the poorest and most vulnerable in our country). They are also at the forefront of ending bankruptcy protection for the most impovrished (which is a biblical concept), and supporting the imprisonment of Middle Eastern men without trial.

The fact that people who call themselves ¨Christians¨ today are nothing like this says something.

My only problem with your using Christians so generally is not all Christians are the way you believe they are.

I, for one, and not like the Christians you describe. I do my best to follow the teachings of Christ. I don't condemn anyone. I may not like what they do but that does not mean I am condemning them.

Re: Arguments for religion





If you are serious about finding peace generating tools you will find them everywhere irrespective of your believing or not believing in God / god or a Higher Power. Many of these gifts of peace are contained within the worlds religions. If you bother to read the rest of my post you will see how an atheist or agnostic cans still befit from the peace promoting tools these religions can offer you without you having to adopt the religion in toto.

Personally, I argue with no one. If I have the truth, I keep it and use it and share it. If you do not want it that is OK, I make no demands you adopt it. If I am wrong and you have the truth I adopt it readily and now I have the truth as well. Wherever the truth is - that is where I go. What is the truth? The truth is that which promotes peace within and with all. The truth is that which does not change. This is not so just because people have the cleverest argument to prove such things. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - arguing over the unanswerable is where many a Christian / Buddhist / Jew or Muslim loses their practice and their peace...they lose it in ego.

Thoreau once noted that people inviting him to a dinner would get their pride from how expensive and fancy a meal that could provide. He said on the other hand, he got his pride from how simple a meal he could make. We can get stuck and blinded with perfecting extreme views and this shows us where our pride is located. I see this a lot of spiritual practitioners that get stuck being perfectionists in the minutia while the rest of their life is out of balance. Where do I put my pride? I put it in being at peace.

If we desire enlightenment and peace ourselves we can ask the question of what is our guiding light - prejudice or truth? I was at a religious discussion one time where the group was composed of a wide spectrum of believers and non believers. One atheist said he ran his life by the golden rule. Another person piped up that the golden rule came from the bible, which made the atheist wince. The atheist seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not like to run his life by anything that came out of the bible. Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect as it is run by man.

Despite these imperfections, each religion also has many "perfection's" within it as well. We can still be open to peace generating tools from any of the religions and spiritual traditions that are available to us if we are serious about being at peace. This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse is commonly referred to as "The Golden Rule," and is more commonly quoted as: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool from the Christians and apply it to your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack thereof. Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the taking. But many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am most grateful wherever I find them.

The Muslims have a practice of praying five times a day to Allah. For those that do not know, Allah is the same God of the Jews and of the Old Testament that the Christians worship. The Muslims pray at sun up, when the sun is at its zenith at noon, when the sun is part way down in the afternoon, when the sun sets and when they go to bed. Even though I am a Christian and not a Muslim, I borrowed from the Muslim's prayer schedule to use as a reminder for my own prayers. If you are an Atheist you can borrow the Muslim's prayer schedule to be mindful of "gratitude" in your life - you can commune with the universe for all the good that that has been given to you at these same prayer times the Muslims use. If you do not want to develop a practice of gratitude, then what about using it as a reminder 5 times a day to relax your breath, practice mindfulness and bring your thoughts back to the present moment? When you have come to a point of gratitude for being able to open your eyes in the morning and being able to take a breath of air everything else is just gravy so to speak. Gratitude plays an important part with finding inner peace, just as being mindful of the present moment and being aware of anything that causes this mindfulness to wander.

A group of Catholic nuns has a motto of "Charity, Simplicity and Humility." Are these not all qualities we can benefit from whether Jew, Protestant or Atheists? If we think not, then what about developing peace from the opposite end of the spectrum by using Selfishness, Complex Living and Pride? Well, all these qualities whether they be the first group or the second are needed for a balanced life. The key here is that of balance and not to get too far in the extreme territory - for even though water and air are life sustaining necessities, too much of them will still kill us. The point I am trying to make is this; no need to discriminate or form prejudices against other religions - just take what you can apply from these spiritual traditions and use it in your own life to develop peace and contentment within yourself - all it takes is being honest, open and willing.

One time I asked an old Catholic priest if he ever studied about Buddhism when he was training in the seminary. He scowled at me like I was the devil shaking his head and quickly walking away from me. If he was a little more open minded to finding inner peace he might have been able to adopt a few peace generating tools from the Buddhists. Many monotheists believe that Buddhists worship the Buddha like he was a God / god. Well, some do, the misguided ones, but the Buddha was just a human, like the rest of us. Some misguided Christians worship the Pope or a favorite saint, so this worshiping of humans is not limited to the Buddhists. Before leaving his family and princely life for that of a renunciate, the Buddha was Prince Siddhartha of India. Some of Siddhartha's concepts were borrowed from the Hindu's. He added a few things and now other spiritual practitioners are borrowing them from him. Catholic priests are not exempt from being at peace either as the recent headlines shows. With just a little open mindedness, that old priest could have made use of many easily adopted peace generating tools from Buddhism. If you look into your own life, you will see anyone can make use of these 3 pillars of Buddhism that are common to all schools of Buddhist practice. Such tools are available to all irrespective of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. What is stopping you from your life of inner peace?

1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self awareness of our own true nature.

2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing non-clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.

3- The development of compassion for others.

I practice for inner peace, but also it might be termed enlightenment. Buddhism provides this tool, which is just one out of the many tools I use for peace development. For once we have found a contentment within and with all and are at peace - we have found enlightenment. When you have come to a satisfactory junction in your life and desire no further progress and are content just to practice you are there. This requires no argumentation or debating. On the contrary, it is quite natural and peaceful. You can also tell when you have "arrived" by your practice telling you so. Does your practice revolve around actually practicing what you have learned to generate peace within or are you on a never ending journey of always looking and never finding?

Once I am at peace, I can share with others about finding peace for themselves, which is the secondary reason I practice. I have no interest in practicing Buddhism for extinguishing reincarnation. These "fear based" reasons for being a Buddhist are not authentic or natural - the persons actions are based on fear or negative consequences otherwise they would not do them. My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my choice. I enjoy life and realize that due to natural law, suffering comes about as part of the process and I accept it as a fair trade off for the privilege of living, so I would enjoy any reincarnation if given the privilege. Buddhism helps makes this trade off of life and pain more in my favor by lending me support to live a life at peace. I do not practice Buddhism to earn merit for the next life - I practice Buddhism for my own peace generation in THIS LIFE.

The Gnostic gospel of Thomas was not included in the New Testament due to prejudice. Gnosticism was persecuted at that time and the bishop in charge of what went into the bible only wanted 4 gospels in the new testament. The reason the bishop liked the idea of 4 gospels stemmed from his predisposition with the number 4. There were 4 seasons, 4 directions , (north, south, east and west), the human body had 4 limbs and so on. Jesus' quote in Thomas's gospel sums up man's quest for enlightenment very succinctly in an almost eastern like fashion.

"The disciples asked Jesus, when will the kingdom come? Jesus replied, 'The kingdom will not come by watching for it. It will not be said - look here or look there. Rather, the kingdom of heaven is spread out upon the earth and men do not see it."

The seeds of enlightenment are all around us - we only have to seek the truth and come to peace within to realize this. In the 12 step programs they have a saying. "attraction rather than promotion" this implies that persons seek out 12 step recovery from a desire to have what other successful 12 step practitioners have. It works the same with religion. No need to argue and try and beat people over the head with dogma. When we spend our time trying to change others it is a signpost of our own disease. Attraction rather than promotion is the way of peace.


Good Luck,

All this "believing!!!!!"

I think this whole problem...(and it is a problem)...would be cleared up if you folks would all stop using that word.

Some of you are making guesses that a God exists...and some of you are making guesses that there are no gods.

All of you are basing your guesses on inadequate information.

Just stop it.

The world will be the better for it.

If you truly do not KNOW....just acknowledge that you do not KNOW.

It won't hurt.

If you feel compelled to guess...guess. In either direction.

But have the ethics to acknowledge that you are guessing.

Good point Frank, but can we really know anything? Should we preface every opinion or statement with 'It's only a guess, but....'

I can't know that there isn't a god (and I acknowledge there is no proof, as yet, in my reply to Atom) but there is no way I would consider myself an agnostic (ie undecided). I'm an approximation of a secular humanist. And devoutly atheist. I 'know' what I am - or is that too strong an assertion for you?

You are asking my opinion. Here it is.

Quite honestly...if, as part of your atheism, you assert without qualification that "there are no gods"...then I feel about it as I do about people who assert "there is a God."

If what you are saying is that you simply do not believe in gods...I have no problem.

Since you say you are not undecided...I must assume you have "decided" one way or the other. Are you suggesting that your "decision" is more than a guess?

Hiya Frank

By your definition every decision everyone makes is a guess...

What I was saying is I have weighed up a bunch of information and I have come to a decision, pending further information. I am not saying that anyone else should believe what I have decided to believe, what I am saying believe me when I tell you this is what I believe.

Goddamn there's a lot of 'believes' in that statement.

My issue was with your assertion that we should preface every statement with 'this is a guess'. I would have thought rational people realise that everyone can only state their opinion on a matter - not universal incontrovertible truth, and therefore the preface can be taken as tacit.

Of course I realise 'rational' is subjective (and, I increasingly suspect, very rare).

Interesting that most of the issues you raise are political ones (illegal immigration, gun laws, death penalty, welfare. etc).

Are you saying that Christians should be actively working in the political arena to fulfill the commands of Christ by conforming the public laws to meet that goal?

What about the folks that would holler SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" at the mention of such a goal?

And since you are apparently the only one who lives a Christlike life, I guess the rest of us who still do fail and sin will have to aspire to attain to your level . Someday. Maybe. We can only hope. It'd be easier if you weren't casting the first stone. Ouch..............and the second................ouch..................

About that "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus mentioned that he was not here to change the law...and the law mandated stoning for the offense.

Why do you suppose Jesus didn't obey the god he worshipped?

Why, since you folks think he was without sin...did he not toss one himself?

Frank, you still leave out the fact that Christ became intercessory for our sins. And, I fear, that until you do understand that, you will still be asking the same question forever.

He was without sin, Frank. He was. No guess there. He was. He did not throw a stone because He said He did not condemn her. He forgave her of her sins. That is what Christ is about, Frank. Forgiveness and love.

Very interesting but leaves open the question "How did all these people come to call themselves christians? their behavior seems to indicate just the opposite." Perhaps I just don't understand religious irony.

Dys, yes, unfortunately, some Christians do display behaviors in exact contradiction to Christ's teachings. I would never deny that. But, there are Christians that do not display that behavior also.

Yes, perhaps you're right. I 've never encountered one, are there any in the US of A? Do they call themselves Buddhists to escape detection? The reason I ask is because EVERYONE I've ever encountered that called themselves "christian" has been anything but. I call these people "paulines" because it seems more accurately descriptive.

Well, I consider myself a Christian. So, if you could point out to me where I have displayed the type of behavior you are talking about, I would appreciate it.

I think sometimes people will think because one is a Christian that for some reason makes them less human, and therefore they don't make mistakes or sin. This is not the case. Christians are human and we make mistakes and we sin. So, are you talking about behavior in general or in certain instances?

well, let me put it this way. Whenever 2 or more protestants are gathered there will be an argument over who is the more christian among them. I also find it interesting that condemnation/judgement is the dominating topic of protestants. The "we are right and everyone else is wrong" ideology that is manifest in everything from style of baptism to the form of music to be heard in the church, to use wine or grape juice, is there predestination or not, was jesus a man or god, etc. etc. etc. Even more interesting to me is the similarity between US protestantism and Islam-neither of which actually has a theology and both rely on every individual man/woman/child (with the aid of a preacher/imam) to interpret the "book" as they see fit. At any rate, what we seem to have among us is the idea "let he who is without sin cast the first stone and stone those who disagree" All of which leaves me with the sole fear that every 'christian" is hell-bent on saving my soul even if they have to kill me to do it.