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Kilmar Abrego Garcia, or Why Due Process Matters

 
 
jespah
 
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2025 09:28 pm
In March, Mr. Abrego Garcia was rounded up with a bunch of other folks and deported. But, instead of just being sent back to El Salvador, he was tossed into the nasty CECOT prison. Here's one of many articles on this matter: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/04/16/van-hollen-demands-abrego-garcia-release/83119729007/

The Trump administration first said he was mistakenly deported, claiming that tattoos made him a suspected gang member. If tats = guilt, then they might want to tell that to the daughter of a woman I've known for a good 55 years. But I digress.

Now, the Trump administration is claiming, oops, our bad, we meant to say that Abrego Garcia actually is a member of the notorious M-13 gang. So, we were right to deport him. Also known as, we meant to do that.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d4/6b/33/d46b330f3f195c77fce139ccea6fe596.jpg

But let's provide the benefit of the doubt, and say that he is as awful as the Trump administration claims him to be. After all, he's no saint.

But that has nothing to do with his right to due process. Citizenship status doesn't mean diddly in the US when it comes to the right to due process.

According to the Fifth Amendment, "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law". No person. It's not "no citizen" or "no innocent person" or "no person who's the color we prefer". No. Person. And according to the Fourteenth Amendment, "...nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Once again, this amendment is, in this section, addressing anyone.

Due process means everything from knowing the charges being made against you to your accuser having to prove their allegations in a court of law. It includes the possibility of bail, and the assistance of competent legal counsel. It means you don't just get a law book thrown at you and are told, well, something in there must be something you did. We're just figuring it out now. No. The party making the accusation(s) has to be specific. And they have to prove those accusations. With actual proof and not just, "Hey, we figure he's guilty because good lord he sure looks it."

Unfortunately for Mr. Abrego Garcia, he's become the ultimate hot potato. The Trump administration claims they can't get him released because that's a presidential power (the question of which branch has which power has never stopped them before), so if the president doesn't feel like it, or prefers golfing that day or whatever, then Mr. Abrego Garcia will have to rot in prison for another day or two or twelve because the president's golf game is far more important.

And, apparently, the US president is terrified of the might of El Salvador (all while claiming he's getting China to eat out of his hand when it comes to tariffs. Yeah, sure, right, right).
https://media1.tenor.com/m/13S9Xe2VG7gAAAAd/jennifer-lawrence-ok.gif

On the El Salvador side of things, their president has essentially said, well, we're not gonna just send a gang member to the US. What kind of people do you take us for?

People living under a dictatorship. Those are the kind of people I take you for. Because, remember what I said above about due process?

It hasn't happened either here in the United States, or in El Salvador.

Why does this matter to you?

Because democracy dies in the dark. And because even if Mr. Abrego Garcia is the devil incarnate, the most hardened criminal to walk the face of the earth, he still deserved a trial. He deserved a chance to defend himself. He deserved the kind of treatment we used to reserve for even the worst criminals, where we actually bothered to find out if they truly were guilty. Not this "move fast and break ****" nonsense which DOGE thinks is how you do, well, anything.

You don't do that with people. Not even with people you hate, not even if you're 100% justified.

DOGE is a rant for another day, so I will stay on topic.

Mr. Abrego Garcia—if he still alive at all—has been treated worse than the Allied forces treated captured Nazis at the end of World War II.

I leave you with this story.

In law school, I was close friends with a guy who was a member of the Young Republicans' Club. This was a good 35, 40 years ago. We kept in touch on and off, and he told me about having been arrested for some reason or another. He wasn't convicted. IIRC, the charges (whatever they were; I honestly can't recall, except that it wasn't anything violent) were dropped.

He said to me that for him, it used to be that the Fifth Amendment and its provisions were things which he didn't care about. It was never going to apply to him.

Until one day, it did.

And he said he was grateful that it exists. That he understood, finally, what it was all about, and why it existed, and why it mattered. I wish I could ask him about the Abrego Garcia matter, but my friend passed away over 5 years ago (it may be 10 by now).

If Mr. Abrego Garcia can be just grabbed out of a Home Depot with no charges and not even a coherent indication of why he was being grabbed, then so can you or I.

Think I'm being overly dramatic? Tell that to American citizen (born in Massachusetts), Nicole Micheroni. Who, it just so happens, is an immigration lawyer. She received a letter telling her to "self-deport". She said it looked like spam, and not like anything officially from the government.

Imagine just binning that email. Imagine going to Home Depot in regular old knockaround street clothes, the kind of togs you'd wear to paint your guest room.

And being yanked out like a criminal, because you look like someone who would be guilty, according to ICE. And seeing El Salvador from inside a notorious prison. And having your rightful release be delayed, over and over again, because no one wants to take responsibility. Or no one wants you telling the world that there are such abuses going on. Or the guards just killing you, because your protestations of innocence are just some boring broken record to them.

Due process denied for one person means it can be denied for anyone.

Don't sweep this incident under the rug. It's important.

Because you could be next.
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2025 09:35 pm
I believe he is nearing the point where he could deport me and people like me and get away with it. The only solution is impeach and remove, but be ready to impeach and remove Vance.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2025 10:48 pm
@jespah,
Garcia was in the US illegally. He was a citizen of El Salvador. So, you believe, apparently, that if you illegally walk over a country's border, you're entitled to a trial before being transported back to your native land. That would be great, if one day a thousand people showed contempt for our laws by just walking across the border and suddenly the country is obligated to give each a trial. I don't believe that. I believe that when a person simply walks over the line into another country without permission, that country is perfectly entitled to put them back where they came from.

Imagine if I were legally vacationing in Spain and simply walked over the border to France. Then when the French tried to put me back in Spain, I cried, "I have rights! I demand a trial!"

A citizen of El Salvador in the US illegally, and believed to be a violent criminal, was returned to El Salvador where he actually is a citizen. The executive branch is supposed to deport people who are in the US illegally. The hysteria about Trump deporting American citizens is nonsense. Give me any quotation where any member of the Trump executive branch has suggested such a thing.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2025 11:13 pm
If I understand correctly they could have sent him to a different country than El Salvador, and there would have been no fuss.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 04:35 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
That would be great, if one day a thousand people showed contempt for our laws by just walking across the border and suddenly the country is obligated to give each a trial.

He didn't "just walk over the border" – he's been in the country since 2011. He's "a father of three [so what?] who is married to an American citizen and who in 2019 was ordered protected from deportation by an immigration judge."

Quote:
Imagine if I were legally vacationing in Spain and simply walked over the border to France.

No problem. Both countries are in the EU's Schengen area.

Quote:
Schengen is the world’s largest area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers. It guarantees free movement to more than 450 million EU citizens, along with non-EU nationals living in the EU or visiting the EU as tourists, exchange students or for business purposes (anyone legally present in the EU).

wikipedia

Quote:
The hysteria about Trump deporting American citizens is nonsense. Give me any quotation where any member of the Trump executive branch has suggested such a thing.

Okay:


0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 05:12 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
Imagine if I were legally vacationing in Spain and simply walked over the border to France. Then when the French tried to put me back in Spain, I cried, "I have rights! I demand a trial!"
There are - at least generally - no border controls in the Schengen countries.
So you could go legally - and without being controlled - to France or any other Schengen-country.
When the French tried to put you back in Spain, you certainly would have the right to go to an administrative tribunal. (And be in the headlines of all papers in the EU)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 07:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
When the French tried to put you back in Spain, you certainly would have the right to go to an administrative tribunal. (And be in the headlines of all papers in the EU)
In certain cases, foreign nationals may be refused the right to enter France:
- You do not have a passport and an entry visa (short-stay or long-stay visa) That's irrelevant, since you were legally in Spain
- You are unable to provide proof of your stay in France (proof of accommodation, income, medical insurance, etc.).[Should be irrelevant in your example as well.] You are coming to France to work, but you do not have the necessary documents authorising you to do so. (Irrelevant).
- Your presence in France would represent a threat to public order (Well, that ... I don't know)
- You are registered in the Schengen Information System for the purposes of refusing entry or represent a threat to the security, public health or international relations of a country in the Schengen area. (Irrelevant, if the Spanish didn't overlook a registration)
- You are subject to a ban (judicial ban from French territory, expulsion order, re-entry ban, administrative ban from French territory) [I don't know if such is so]

The authorities will then take a decision to refuse entry. During the procedure, the you, as a foreign national, have rights, including the right to appeal against the refusal of entry to the administrative court. If you have not lodged such an appeal, or if the appeal is rejected by the judge, you are forcibly deported from France ... if you don't appeal to a higher court, or the EU-court, or the European Court of Human Rights.


But in any case: you would be in the headlines!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 08:13 am
@Brandon9000,
Your arguments are based on fantasy.

Just a little bit of research would have stopped you getting all that egg all over your face.

This is typical of the intellectual paucity of Trump voters.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 08:19 am
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

If tats = guilt, then they might want to tell that to the daughter of a woman I've known for a good 55 years.


Or Pete Hegseth, (although they might have a point with that git.)
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 12:01 pm
@Brandon9000,
You must be proud of your country's decision to turn the SS St. Louis, full of Jewish refugees, back to Nazi Germany.

That'll teach them for trying to enter the country illegally, by arriving on a boat, send them to the gas chambers.

Is this what making America great again means to you?

I only expect a deafening silence, whenever you have to deal with facts you run away with your tail between your legs.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 12:11 pm
@jespah,
The over reach these people have is preposterous.

Just after Trump's election victory Glenn/nonono's sockpuppets send me a load of abuse, primarily being that I would be deported to Africa.

Unlike Americans, I'm not an immigrant, my ancestors were over here when the Mayflower sailed, (and when the bloody Normans invaded.)

Yet he thinks Trump has the power to have me deported from the UK.

That's how bloody delusional, and power hungry, they are.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  6  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2025 01:42 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

.... So, you believe, apparently, that if you illegally walk over a country's border, you're entitled to a trial before being transported back to your native land. That would be great, if one day a thousand people showed contempt for our laws by just walking across the border and suddenly the country is obligated to give each a trial. ...
I sure do.

And there are hundreds of courts in the United States, with over a hundred at the federal level alone. And, much like when a sports team is having work done on their stadium (hello, Tampa Bay Rays), another team (the NY Yankees, so kudos to them) loans them the use of their facilities, I have no doubt that state courts could easily accommodate some federal overflow if necessary. Tiny Rhode Island has 6 state courts. With far more counties, places like Texas and California obviously have lots more.

There are also 1.3 million active lawyers in the US, and there are a bunch of us (myself included), who are retired. Would I come out of retirement to do this? Sure, why not?

Would this be costly? Why yes, it most certainly would.

And, fun fact, people enjoy throwing around all sorts of actions that can be taken (not just in the government but really in any area of life) without taking a budget into consideration.

Shielding the public from the costs doesn't do anyone any favors. In particular, shielding the public from the costs of the US paying El Salvador to put people like Abrego Garcia into prison and keep him there.

It's a system ripe for "cost-cutting", AKA corruption. Make more money by feeding people less! Don't offer medical care and save some cash! Let 'em die younger and save even more! Don't bother with blankets and pillows, and watch the money stay in your account!
https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/03/20/human-rights-watch-declaration-prison-conditions-el-salvador-jgg-v-trump-case
https://www.npr.org/2025/03/17/g-s1-54206/el-salvador-mega-prison-cecot
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-68244963

So yes, of course I'm advocating for actual due process for these people. And yeah, it'll be a budget-breaker. So maybe someone with more power than I have should take a look at that, and figure out that there are better ways to handle this influx of people, without stripping them of their rights and making a mockery of the Eighth Amendment.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2025 08:33 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Garcia was in the US illegally. He was a citizen of El Salvador. So, you believe, apparently, that if you illegally walk over a country's border, you're entitled to a trial before being transported back to your native land. That would be great, if one day a thousand people showed contempt for our laws by just walking across the border and suddenly the country is obligated to give each a trial. I don't believe that. I believe that when a person simply walks over the line into another country without permission, that country is perfectly entitled to put them back where they came from.

Imagine if I were legally vacationing in Spain and simply walked over the border to France. Then when the French tried to put me back in Spain, I cried, "I have rights! I demand a trial!"

A citizen of El Salvador in the US illegally, and believed to be a violent criminal, was returned to El Salvador where he actually is a citizen. The executive branch is supposed to deport people who are in the US illegally. The hysteria about Trump deporting American citizens is nonsense. Give me any quotation where any member of the Trump executive branch has suggested such a thing.


So Brandon, you are saying that if you "believe" something...that should take precedence over what the Constitution says?

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2025 04:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Don't expect an answer.
0 Replies
 
 

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