Socrates, welcome to modernity. It's time for a brief update from a tiny aspect of knowledge.
Since your time it was found that cells are composed of molecules, which are composed of atoms, which are composed of subatomic particles. Subatomic particles have bizarre attributes. They exist as potentialities until their wave function collapses into perceived reality. The observer(subjectivity) and observed(objectivity) are inseparable. The symbiotic relation mandates some form of causal relationship, as in a nested hierarchy. There are major philosophical problems in need of address because certain attributes (like quantum tunneling) defy our traditional understanding of space and time (but that's another story).
Additionally, biophysicists (i.e. Ilya Prigogine) have shown emergence to be a natural part of life, which define synergistic properties arising as a result of surpassing certain orders of complexity.
These do not, however, address the issue at hand.
Dagmarka has done a splendid job critically analyzing the assumptions. Thank you, I appreciate the clarity.
For those of you who have answered yes, please explain how and why, in a particular moment, you did, would or could choose something that you perceived as less than optimal.
Dagmarka,
I am confused. How is it that you are so certain of your own free will (I do not mean to challenge your expertise in this field at all or indeed your ability as a human to reason, but feel it my duty to point out inconsistencies in logic)? Please explain, though I am not sure how you could be able to... I will try my hardest to listen.
Git Von Gat,
I breifly have encountered modernity on a forum on a superstring website. I dismissed it as mear vodoo; forgive me it is my curse. I believe in truth coming from simple fundemental logic and its nature. On subjectivity though: this is somthing I can deal with/ my "trade" is logic and philosophy. I see a few problems, for sake of sanity (other's) I will not point them out. On free will (despite the logical conflict: How personal!? If they answer no, do they answer or is it some other entity? Keep that thought in mind:
Perhaps we do not have free will, as a finger on the hand lacks free will. Our perception is dim... true... but clear enough to marvel at our own existence/ navel gaze a little. If we do not have free will then what is it that appears to be guiding our movement? Perhaps the will of some greater being, but then it must not be for something either does or does not govern them... If so an infinate series. If not would not the illusion of governance still exist? An infinate series again... Perhaps it is merely a phenomena... a fleeting image and no more, but is it not logically in form and substance perfect as we hold it in the mind. The part which is percieved is magnificent, to complex for an image... plus, the messgae comes from an internal source, so what then? If yes, can we truly communicate it? And is it worth comunicating it/ do others have free will? You can't prove it for another, can you? If it is personal is the answer not true for everyone? Perhaps I am simply confused and... yes... please clarify... thankyou.
What it is, yo!
Second Socrates
Gitvongat wrote:
Can you choose to do something other than what you believe to be optimal in that particular moment?
IMO it would be more relevant to choose slightly different wording--- when we make a decision it is based on a desired consequence ---optimizing a particular consequence would be desireable but we are free to choose a course of action that is less than optimal. I can not prove this assumption but since society is based on the rule of law which holds each individual accountable for his/her actions it must be held that we do indeed have free will that is only constrained by our sometimes flawed mental concepts of reality.
Therefore I voted yes to your question.
I'm as free as a bird, but I can't fly.
c.i.
To put bread on your families table may be optimal but it is still free will.....
You chose to do it, you don't have to, you don't have to do anything, you can walk away at any point (some people do)
Some days I walk to the shop through to woods even though it is quicker to cut through the field.
I'm free to live and die, and in between to wonder why.
I'm free to give and lie, and at all times wonder why.
