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Why the Christian god is imperfect and unfair

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2023 10:49 am
@izzythepush,
The witnesses are big here in the US.

In the 60s a very good friend (a witness) and saw each other almost every day. We made stop motion animated dinosaur movies and built mini sets for them, remaking among other films, 'Lost World'.

In the summer of '67 or '68 the witnesses came to believe that the world was coming to and end. They were told to separate themselves from non witness personal contacts. He ghosted me immediately. And though I knew he moved to Florida several years after the End time had passed, we never talked or saw each other again.

It bothers me that religion ruined a meaningful relationship.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sun 19 Nov, 2023 03:08 pm
@izzythepush,
Found this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/04/israelandthepalestinians.bookextracts

I can't remember how long it was after that that I decided to share this experience and my thoughts on it with my family. This was something I was usually encouraged to do. We were sitting around the dinner table - all seven of us. I launched into my story about the Israeli in Sunday school and how what he said was racist. I had been thinking about the matter and now added, for my family's benefit, a further opinion. It was wrong for one country to take over another, or part of another, by military force. If the US was wrong in Vietnam - and that was a given around our dinner table - then Israel was wrong in taking over all that Arab land. I was reasoning by analogy, and nobody had yet told me that some analogies were off limits.

For some time I remained unaware that my father was listening to me not with approval but with rising fury. When he barked, "Enough already!" the shift was disturbingly abrupt. Like my Sunday school teacher, he made me feel that I had said something obscene. Then he drew a breath and seemed to soften. "I think you need to look at why you're saying what you're saying," he said, and then the softness vanished. "There's some Jewish self-hatred there."

I felt then - and still feel now, when I look back - deeply and frustratingly misunderstood. My motives had nothing to do with self-hatred or any feeling about being Jewish. Nor did they have anything to do with compassion for a people - the Palestinians - about whom I knew nothing. I was merely following, as best I could, and in typical 14-year-old fashion, what seemed to be the dictates of logic. If in following them, the results appeared to defy assumptions, then that just made them more curious and compelling. Judging people by their colour or religion was wrong. Racism - making a generalisation about a whole people, stereotyping a whole people - was wrong. Taking over other countries was wrong, even if they attacked you (it was years before I learned that it was Israel that had launched this war, justified at the time by Abba Eban, American liberal Jewry's favourite Israeli, as a "pre-emptive" strike). Among the shibboleths I was brought up on was the belief that "my country right or wrong" was wrong. No one liked to insist more than my dad that if you really loved your country you criticised its flaws. Surely that also applied to religion, and "my religion right or wrong" must also be wrong. I was only trying to apply general principles to a particular case. An exercise in logic. An exercise in teenage stubbornness. But I was unprepared for the response, with its implication that I did not know myself, coming from my father's lips. An attack on my selfhood.

I was startled and bewildered by the phrase "Jewish self-hatred". I didn't know what it meant. I hadn't imagined that Jews would hate themselves, or that anyone would think that I hated myself. The charge seemed so far-fetched, yet so personal. And so bitterly unfair. Burning from head to toe, I threw down knife and fork and left the table in a huff, pounding up the stairs to my room, where I hurled myself on my bed and wrestled with my frustration.

Some might by now have concluded that the roots of my anti-Zionism lie in oedipal trauma. For sure, this was a deeply distressing incident. Later, I looked back on it as my first political disagreement with my father. Later still, as one of a number of raw episodes in our relationship, most of which had nothing to do with politics. Now, looking again at the history behind this incident, I see more clearly why the opinions I was expressing would have infuriated nearly everyone in my father's milieu in those days. To me, they were a logical development from the agreed shared ground of democratic liberalism, but to liberals of my father's generation they were an insolent abrogation of that shared ground. Without in the least intending to, I had breached a taboo.

Today, as cracks show in the presumed monolith of Jewish backing for Israel, increasing numbers of Jews are interrogating and rejecting Zionism. Nonetheless, the existence of anti-Zionist Jews strikes many people - Jews and non-Jews - as an anomaly, a perversity, a violation of the first clause in the ethical aphorism of Hillel, the first-century rabbi and doyenne of Jewish teachings: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?"

Zionism is an ideology and a political movement. As such it is open to rational dispute. Jews, like others, might view the Jewish claim to Palestine as irrational, anachronistic, and intrinsically unjust. They might consider the Jewish state to be discriminatory or racist or might object - on political, philosophical, or even specifically Jewish grounds - to any state based on the supremacy of a particular religious or ethnic group. As Jews, they might reject the idea that Jewish people constitute a "nation", or at least a "nation" of the type that can or should become a territorial nation-state. Or they might have concluded on the basis of an examination of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians that the underlying cause of the conflict was the ideology of the Israeli state.

Any or all of the above should be sufficient to explain why some Jews would become anti-Zionists. But that doesn't stop critics from placing us firmly in the realm of the irredeemably neurotic. Whenever Jews speak out against Israel, their motives, their representativeness, their authenticity as Jews are questioned. We are pathologised. For only a psychological aberration, a neurotic malaise, could account for our defection from Israel's cause, which is presumed to be our own cause.

Anti-Zionist Jews are not and do not claim to be any more authentic or representative than any other Jews, nor is their protest against Israel any more valid than a non-Jew's. But "If I am not for myself", then the Zionists will claim to be for me, will usurp my voice and my Jewishness. Since each Israeli atrocity is justified by the exigencies of Jewish survival, each calls forth a particular witness from anti-Zionist Jews, whose very existence contradicts the Zionist claim to speak for all Jews everywhere.

· This is an edited extract from If I Am Not for Myself: Journey of an Anti-Zionist Jew, by Mike Marqusee, published by Verso at £15.99. To order a copy for £14.99 with free UK p&p go to theguardian.com/bookshop or call 0870 836 0875.

izzythepush
 
  2  
Sun 19 Nov, 2023 04:21 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
I basically categorise belief systems into those who try and rich out to others, and those who try and separate themselves off from the rest.

Atheists are just as bad as every other religion in this respect.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Mon 20 Nov, 2023 11:42 am
@izzythepush,
I might think that as an atheist that I wouldn't be as angry as most of them seem to be with an entity that they claim doesn't exist.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Mon 20 Nov, 2023 04:48 pm
@kjw47,
Well, do you know who the perfect and fair God is these days? Might be helpful to know.
kjw47
 
  -3  
Tue 21 Nov, 2023 04:07 pm
@glitterbag,
YHWH(Jehovah) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.= The Father.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Tue 21 Nov, 2023 05:50 pm
@kjw47,
The G*D of the Jewish, Christian, Islamic faiths.
kjw47
 
  -3  
Tue 21 Nov, 2023 08:26 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
He isnt a trinity and he NEVER sent Mohammed.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 03:08 am
@kjw47,
There is far more proof of the Koran being divine than the Bible.

Nobody, (apart from a few nutjobs) claims that was written by God.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 03:13 am
@kjw47,
And I noticed the deafening silence about Rebecca Vardy.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 07:21 am
This is what has been claimed about the Koran.

I do not speak Arabic, nor do I know any experts in Arabic so these claims are untested.

The prophet Mohammed was illiterate, so writing the Koran was a miracle in itself.

The prophet did not write the Koran himself it was dictated by angels.

The Koran is perfect. Arabic is as much a visual as a spoken language, to change one comma would knock it all out of alignment, and it would no longer be perfect.

The challenge is that those who doubt its divity should try to create something else as perfect, and nobody ever has.

These are claims. I don't have the skill set to check them out, but I've not heard of anyone who does have the skill set disputing it.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 01:07 pm
@kjw47,
Are you SURE he/she never sent Mohammed?
kjw47
 
  -3  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 04:23 pm
@glitterbag,
100% sure.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 04:56 pm
@kjw47,
Was that in the Koran?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 05:15 pm
@glitterbag,
He wouldn't know.

All he has is dogma and an intense desire to separate people into sheep and goats.

If those are the sheep I'm going to try my luck with the goats.
0 Replies
 
kjw47
 
  -2  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 08:59 pm
@glitterbag,
They refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is Gods son=blasphemers.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 23 Nov, 2023 07:17 am
@glitterbag,
See, Dogma.

And unreasoning dogma at that.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sat 25 Nov, 2023 11:06 am
@kjw47,
And you know that how?

We are members of three tribes with an incomplete understanding of G*D. Having an imperfect understanding of G*D diminishes Him no an way.

We have proven ourselves imperfect, incapable of following the law, unable to honor covenants with the Lord G*D Almighty, and keeping G*D in front of us to the point the only thing that saves up is Christ's grace.

Also the proverb, "judge ye not, less ye be judged," seems apt.
kjw47
 
  -2  
Sat 25 Nov, 2023 03:27 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
The only ones getting Grace are those that-OBEY.= Every utterance from God=OT-NT, to the very best of ones ability.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Sat 25 Nov, 2023 06:14 pm
@kjw47,
You're a sad and misguided person. I hope for your sake you manage to adhere to every ridiculous notion your 'idea' of God is all about.
 

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