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Disgust

 
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 06:25 pm
Sit and knit? How about a nice comfy sweater for spendius.<smile>
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 06:32 pm
Letty, it was a weak attempt at irony.
I've got nothing against Spendius; don't know him, But I feel a need to "defend" Cyracuz' position because I have also perceived him to be consistently humanistic, pacifistic and SINCERE, never a phony. AND I hate to see him have to defend himself against innane charges of being a phony Mr. Virtue. We all try to promote and protect our egos, I prefer that we choose to do so via "virtue" than via machismo (which IS usually phony) and destructive aggression.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 06:45 pm
Anyone who likes Greig, JL. is okay with me. Cyracuz is one of the good guys. Yes, I knew your remark was intended to be a bit ironic, but that's fine as well. If I were Cyracuz, I might temper the word "disgust" a wee bit, however.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:10 am
Letty, there's always room for you. But you should give the knitting to spendius Smile

But to the point; I have never seen pasifism as something docile and passive. That is why I think the term is so inappropriate. To be a pasifist, as I understand it, means that you will rather die than defend yourself. If that's the case, then pasifism is just foolish, a denial of life and what it demands of you.

I'm no pacifist, I just trust in karma.

What I am talking about is letting the message come across clearly that "I will not reach my goals through violence and dishonesty". It is a personal principal. Our enemy has never been the muslims, regardless of what people around me say. Our enemy is what we fear the muslims might do.

In my experience we have a way of making our fantasies come to life. That's how we've achieved the technological standard of the modern world. But this is also true of our fears. We make them real. The simplest example is the little child who is sitting over his homework telling himself that it's too difficult, because he is afraid he won't understand. The fear of not understanding blocks understanding. Similarly, the fear of what we might see prevents us from seing the true picture. That's why we think our violence has served us.

This subject is really much bigger. A large part of my conviction not to hurt anyone is the knowledge that in so doing I hurt myself. To come to blows is to succumb to my manhood, to the state of animal, a step down from humanity. When you let someone coax you into this you've already lost.
Also, there is the issue of values. My set of values are perhaps different than those of a person willing to use violence. Maybe he's able to get what he wants at the time by force. But I do not seek temporary things, and only temporary things can come of violence. Say you want land, so you invade. Say all goes well, you kill the owner and take it for yourself. So far so good, but then you die. What will happen to the land? It will still be there, oblivious as ever to you and everybody else. You cannot take it with you. So, in taking the land you actually traded something everlasting for something temporary, you traded your humanity for property. It's like buying a safe with the money you were going to keep in it.

Funny that you remembered that bit about the car spendius, but I don't see the relevance. Temper and aggression are not strictly negative impulses. Gandhi, for instance, had one hell of a temper. Also, "when it comes to matters of honor," said gandhi, "I would advocate the use of force rather than to be dishonored". He also said that he didn't think his non-violence policy would work on hitler. At least not by the time the war was on.

I used the word disgust about those who are capable of killing in the name of ignorance, and it needs no tempering. It is disgusting. But it refers to the acts, not the actors, so to speak.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:11 am
I'll take some of these points one by one and answer them.The others failure to do that speaks volumes.

Quote:
Letty, perhaps you should sit and KNIT. How about THAT, Spendius?
.

The "perhaps" renders that meaningless.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:15 am
Letty wrote-

Quote:
Well, my goodness. Is there any room for a lady in here? Or should I just sit quietly and read.
.

I must admit that I am inclined to think that ladies,unless exceptional,and philosophy don't mix.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:18 am
Spendius wrote:
Quote:
I understand what Cyracuz is saying.Loud and clear.
He seeks to be the little Mr Virtue while others do the dirty work on which he depends.


How so? Is this "dirty work" something that needs doing? If so, why?

You shouldn't be so quick to determine what I depend on.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:25 am
But, spendius, dear. I can neither knit; do needle point nor embroider.

Alas and alack. What's a Letty to do? I have an idea, my dear. Let's recite The Charge of the Light Brigade. I have been informed by my sister that we have an infamous ancestor who gave that fateful order.

Forgive me, Norway. Carry on and use whatever abstract noun that you choose. <smile>
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:26 am
Quote:
Spendius, can you name a pacificist you respect and state what you respect about his/her pacificism?
.

Yes Jesus.And those who have gone to jail,or worse,as concientious objectors.They would have refused to fight Hitler so Cyracuz is way behind them as a pacifist.A few people here have gone to jail for withholding a portion of their taxes which was that % due to defence spending.I don't agree with that but I respect it.

As far as I can gather Cyracuz is paying no price for his pacifism.He has a band he once said.That means he has a microphone and can use it to impress his version of things on young people.He obviously thinks the electricity he is dependent on to do these things and many others appears by magic.In fact he has something to gain from his pacifism.Attention for a narrow and attractive viewpoint which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:31 am
[quotAnd on what grounds do you consider Cyracuz' (or my--probably milder form of) pacificism "phony"?[/quote].

That you not only pay no price but actually enjoy the benefits of the system you object to one of which is this posture you have because of how easy it is to do.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:32 am
How is electricity a result of people shooting eachother?

And I have been in jail for not serving in the army, just so you know.


I would agree that Jesus was a great person. He was a pasifist, and still he defeated his enemies. What I don't understand is how you can mention him as someone you respect when you clearly disregard all his teachings. You speak like a good christian, true to the brand and by your own creed branded.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:36 am
Quote:
Sit and knit? How about a nice comfy sweater for spendius.<smile>
.

That would be nice Letty now winter is coming on and if these pacifists win the argument (fat chance) there will be no heating.ANYWHERE.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:42 am
Quote:
. We all try to promote and protect our egos, I prefer that we choose to do so via "virtue" than via machismo (which IS usually phony) and destructive aggression.
.

Go to a psychologist and ask him what the manifestations of aggression are in all their raging glory.And don't use "usually" in this Dr Goebells fashion because it doesn't carry any weight.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 05:44 am
Letty wrote-

Quote:
If I were Cyracuz, I might temper the word "disgust" a wee bit, however.
.

Those are the words of an emollient chairwoman.Decoded it means "cut it out".
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 06:15 am
JLN-

I think Cyr has left you holding the baby.

That's a backing off post (1541658).

We don't really know what "Karma" is.The Oxford Companion to Philosophy suggests that it-"constitutes bondage in Jaina,Buddhist and Vedic thought."Rather him than me and judging by the footage of the news from those areas of the world where those things began rather him than the populations of those countries.

The Oxford goes on-"The law of karma links up the moral quality of past actions with the hedonic quality of present and future life in a deterministic way".----"A slanderer,for example,is allegedly reborn with bad breath."
I think I'll continue with the Oxford-
"Thanks to this doctrine,the Hindu theist's God is acquitted of responsibility for evil."

The entry in the Oxford was written by Prof Arindam Chakrabarti of the University of Delhi.His use of the word "allegedly" and,indeed, the example he chose, betrays his contempt.

Also note the "hedonic" which is a hard word to apply to the soldiers in the War on Terror but easy to apply to Cyracuz and by association with yourself.That is why Letty is careful not to commit herself.

You can make what you like of Cyr's last post but to me it's an attempt to slip unnoticed out of a side door.Plus the usual jibe in passing which suggests too much socialising with his inferiors and others he can splat his fat ego over.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 09:19 am
Are you making a point of not addressing me directly spendius?

Say "you don't know what karma is". That way you're not just babbling. Also, in seeking to explain karma you turn to a professor. Why not a buddhist monk for instance? Do you ask your barber to fix your computer when that is needed, or do you go to a cpu workshop?

I don't know if slander gives you bad breath in the next life. I know bad food and hygiene gives you bad breath in this life. That is karma. Why is it so impossible that this causality is present in your spiritual existence as well?

I am not slipping unnoticed out of a side door. I am opening it so that the party may spill into the next room.

And as I am waiting for the world to turn so the other participants may have their say I find myself wondering: "Is he trying to insult me by not talking directly to me, does he have some point to prove? Or is he just afraid that he will be disarmed and exposed to his own ignorance?" Cool
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 09:29 am
Cyr-

I have to make my way to where my other kit is located.I'll see you fairly soon.Ineluctable modalities permitting.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 11:47 am
Cyr-

Not at all.I addressed the post to JLN.I enjoy our discourse.

If you have been to jail for your pacifist views then I respect that.You hadn't mentioned it and it is not something I could be expected to predict.It is not common here.

When Bob Hope introduced Marilyn to the troops in Korea,a baying mob almost,he used words nearly like-"Here you are boys-this is what you're fighting for."What that means is that men who won't fight are little use to women.

I even admire your stance now I know it cost you and my advice is not to wear it as a badge.

As I know nothing about karma I naturally turned to one of my reference books.I tend to assume they know what they are on about and I would think that the Oxford people chose a well qualified person to provide the definition.I will allow that it may be wrong or distorted.I would imagine that a buddhist monk is a "squaddie" and that the prof. is an officer but again I'll allow that I may be mistaken.It is up to you to provide an explanation because you used the word.

If bad food and bad hygiene is bad karma then I must have good karma.

And I'm afraid of nothing that words can do.

What is your position on the birth rate.After all most of the problems we dispute are caused by it.
Is a buddhist monk celibate as I am.(Take care with definition on this.Take very great care.)

Regards.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 12:17 pm
The way I understand karma is the effect the world has on you, and that you have on the world. We're not above causality in anything we do, not even in our thoughts.

I think I mentioned that jail bit in the initial post of this thread. (but it might have been another one)

Regarding the birth rate, I do not completely follow. I cannot say I have a position on it. For the part about a buddhist monk, I don't know there either. Isn't a monk by definition celibate? A buddhist isn't neccecarily celibate, though I believe a buddha would be.

Quote:
What that means is that men who won't fight are little use to women.


Agreed. I am not saying we shouldn't fight. I'm just saying that there are means that are more effective and less self-destructing than violence. But it is up to each and every one of us to discover that. After all, it is a personal principal, as I said, and it cannot be taught, only learned.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 01:40 pm
Quote:
Isn't a monk by definition celibate?



It is the right and proper thing.I think the idea is that anyone who is beholden to women in any way cannot take an objective view of the situation in a society or culture.It renders him pliable when he is ruled by his lust and his squirmings in the field of philosophy and theology are attempts to try to have it both ways.

I think buddhist monks are celibate but some non religious people are too.Flaubert did two years of it from 21 to 23,which is real heavy considering his money.The practice of self discipline for its own sake.You must have had a bit of it in jail.Military have it forced on them in serious places.

Quote:

Agreed. I am not saying we shouldn't fight. I'm just saying that there are means that are more effective and less self-destructing than violence


It is a pity you didn't say that earlier.That is a totally different position,which is easy to agree
with,than what I thought you were taking.I had the lads in Iraq in mind all the time.

Don't you think that the sheer size of the population is the main cause of most of our problems?Could we not find a way to maintain our strength and comforts with a lot less.How much oil will a baby born today require over the next 80 years and where will it all come from?
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