Can Religious Thought and Intellectual Honesty Coexist?

Intrepid wrote:

Do you have a problem with that, Frank? Interesting that you refer to belief in a "religious context". Is a religious context somehow different that any other context? If you were half as intelligent as you think you are, you would not make the distinction.

1. acceptance of truth of something: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty

2. trust: confidence that somebody or something is good or will be effective

3. something that somebody believes in: a statement, principle, or doctrine that a person or group accepts as true

4. opinion: an opinion, especially a firm and considered one

5. religious faith: faith in God or in a religion's gods

It is a little strange, Intrepid, to question Franks intelligence due to a distinction he makes, and then post definitions which highlight the different meanings of the word 'belief' which necessitate that very distinction. Are you arguing with yourself?

Doomed wrote:

The term "religion" is from the Latin, meaning to "bind." I would say it's mostly the idea of being bound to God and the struggle to be closer to the God in which one believes. Religion attempts to answer questions like, "what kind of person should I be?, how should I act?, what is my relationship to others?, how can I be a good person"?Faith is simply the belief that one might have that one can be closer to God and that God is good. What constitutes the practice of religion are things like religious writings (stories, laws, speeches, poems, songs, art, etc.) and rituals. While these are rich and diverse, the term "religion," can only have one meaning if we are to communicate clearly about it - a binding to God - nothing more, nothing less.

Is it intellectually honest to be 'bound' to something that you have no reason to believe exists?

Doomed wrote:

The term intellect is from the Greek, related to the word technical. It is simply a certain way of thinking - in a way, like a computer "thinks." We use the intellect to reason - to draw likely conclusions from evidence presented to us or experienced directly. We apply the intellect to all kinds of problems: how to fix a leaky faucet, how to apply the law fairly, how to predict weather patterns, even to figure out the likely place our dog has run off to. Let us define the intellect in this narrow way for our purposes - that which embraces the repeatable experiment. As a matter of fact, let's just come out and say it. We really mean science - "Religion and science."

Science makes use of intellect, of course, but not all intellectual thought is scientific. Much is philosophical, legal and mathematical. Intellect can be used to deduce that 2+4=4, without the need for repeatable evidence. "Religion and science" is not what we really mean at all. Let me suggest "Religion and rational thought".

Doomed wrote:

Now, I can state my hypothesis: Religion can tell us nothing about science and science can tell us nothing about religion. Can religious writings help you fix a leaky faucet? No. Do the religious need scientific proof of God? No.

So, what's the mix up? What's the big deal?

You are muddying the waters by talking about science rather than reason. If religion has nothing to do with rationality, and rationality nothing to do with religion, then surely religion must be irrational (or arational?), as one's choice of favourite colour is irrational (/arational).

Therefore attempting to defend religion with rational argument would be intellectually dishonest - it would be to pretend something is subject to rational thought when it is not. In addition, were religion and reason nothing to do with each other, then no argument from a religious perceptive would have any weight in discussions of subjects which do rely on rational thought, such as science, history, ethics, politics and law.

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Re: Religion and intellectual honesty

Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Doomed wrote:
I am a complete nerdy intellectual type and make no apologies, yes, I am one of the educated "elite," so, come on, put up your dukes if I piss you off. I'm used to being bashed for having a brain.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Faith is simply the belief that one might have that one can be closer to God and that God is good.

If you are half as intelligent as you think you are...

...you should be able to see that "belief" in a religious context...is nothing more than blind guesses about the unknown. "Faith"...is merely the bull-headed insistence that those guesses are more than guesses.

Do you have a problem with that, Frank? Interesting that you refer to belief in a "religious context". Is a religious context somehow different that any other context? If you were half as intelligent as you think you are, you would not make the distinction.

Okay...apparently you think saying "I believe in god"...and "I believe the Giants are gonna win the Super Bowl this year"...are in the same league.

Frankly, I think the latter has more foundation than the former...but if you think they are equal...who am I to argue.

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1. acceptance of truth of something: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty

Which, of course, is another way of saying "You really do not know."

So we are in agreement.

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2. trust: confidence that somebody or something is good or will be effective

Which, of course, is another way of saying "You really do not know."

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3. something that somebody believes in: a statement, principle, or doctrine that a person or group accepts as true

Which, of course, is another way of saying "He, she, we really do not know."

We are in agreement.

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4. opinion: an opinion, especially a firm and considered one

Which is another way of saying "This is an opinion...it is not fact."

We are in agreement.

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5. religious faith: faith in God or in a religion's gods

Which is another way of saying..."I am guessing there is a God."

We are in agreement.

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"I believe" in all it's variations is nebulous at best, and never guarantees anything. To rely on "faith" as the foundation of anything says even less. Most of us have the ability to investigate, analyze, and apply common sense to most of our personal beliefs, but adding "faith" as the foundation results in forgoing logic if that requires acceptance of contradictory evidence. I really don't know how people do it.

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....and what is wrong with having faith? Hey CI, are you talking about the crab nebulous? Laughing

Oh, I crack me up. Laughing

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I'm glad it "cracks you up!" You've got a big problem, bud, and you just can't admit it. Fear of having believed in a lie is too much to bear.

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Apsia - I worked on a reply quite a while but realized I needed to know exactly what you mean by "blind guesses" of the religious, i.e., about what are you saying they are "guessing?" Please give a few concrete examples if you can - Thank you.

Intrepid - Yes, we must be more exact in our meanings or we risk arguing forever without understanding each other. I think we're talking about "believe" as analogous to "we trust," or "we assume" - to "trust" in God, "assume" God, "believe" in God.

I think you'd agree that "belief," by definition, is not a "guess," but, it is not a scientific-type conclusion either.

Can we all settle on this meaning of "belief" for our purposes here?

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Doomed, It can't be done; "belief" is subjective, and there is no common understanding of it. My belief is different than yours, and mine is different than all of my siblings - depending on the issue/topic.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm glad it "cracks you up!" You've got a big problem, bud, and you just can't admit it. Fear of having believed in a lie is too much to bear.

Sorry, the name is not bud... you must be mistaking me for someone who actually has a fear. I can bear your lies. No problem. ;-)

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Only if you're a "she."

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Doomed wrote:

Apsia

Please...call me Frank. But if you insist on the Apisa...at least spell it right.

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- I worked on a reply quite a while but realized I needed to know exactly what you mean by "blind guesses" of the religious, i.e., about what are you saying they are "guessing?" Please give a few concrete examples if you can - Thank you.

Most of the theists posting here are "blindly guessing" that there is a God.

They are "blindly guessing" that the God is a personal God...a God with expectations of humans.

They are "blindly guessing" that they know what those expectations are.

I hope that gives you enough to work on.

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Intrepid - Yes, we must be more exact in our meanings or we risk arguing forever without understanding each other. I think we're talking about "believe" as analogous to "we trust," or "we assume" - to "trust" in God, "assume" God, "believe" in God.

I think you'd agree that "belief," by definition, is not a "guess," but, it is not a scientific-type conclusion either.

Well...Intrepid might agree...but I sure as heck wouldn't.

If you are assuming something...you are, in effect, guessing about it.

If you are "trusting" (the way you used it here) in something...you are, in effect, guessing about it.

The one thing we can be pretty sure of...is that when someone uses the words "I believe..." in a religious context....they do not know.

I certainly would be willing to concede that they may be "estimating" "supposing" "trusting in" or "assuming"....but all those words are really variations on guessing.

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Can we all settle on this meaning of "belief" for our purposes here?

As long as the settlement includes the understanding that the person expressing a "belief" IS DEFINITELY NOT EXPRESSING something known..I will agree.

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Also, djbt and others:

OK, let's say "rational thought" instead of "science." But, remember, that must include the idea that we don't know everything. So... the irony is, if you are attempting to base your life solely on rational thought, you have to leave room for the possibility that, at least, some seemingly irrational aspects of life may turn out to be rational after all. This was why I settled on science for the sake of argument. Isn't the original question (very generally paraphrased), "Why should I believe in religion when it can't be prooven?"

But, my point was that the question itself is a false assumption about the necessity of "prooving" religion.
My hypothesis is simply that religion and science are two worlds and to hold religion up to scientific scrutiny is as absurd as forcing science to conform to a given mythology.

Aspia's insistence on such proof is a reaction to the "faithful" because the "faithful" can offer no such proof. As a matter of fact, religion is technically "irrational." By "irrational" is meant all the stuff (and, think, there is a LOT of it) that can't, so far, lie within the domain of science. I'm using "irrationality" in a very specific sense here - it does not imply anything bad or insane (although it can be used in this way).

I did think of something which might be helpful. What we listed the things we believe in. I wonder what that would reveal. I highly suspect there would be a lot of beautiful irrationality involved.

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Frank: I'm very sorry to have accidently misspelled your name. I know you're the sensitive type.

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Frank is the sensitive type? ROFLMAO

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Doomed wrote:

Aspia's insistence on such proof is a reaction to the "faithful" because the "faithful" can offer no such proof.

Well...I guess you get some kind of childish pleasure out of calling me by my last name...and spelling it incorrectly...so I guess calling it to your attention is of no use.

But I at least have the guts to use my real name here...rather than something like "doomed!"

And...I where exactly have I asked for proof of what the "faithful" are "faithful" about?

To the best of my knowledge I have never asked for proof of this nonsense...because I realize that it is not available. (I have occasionally asked "And I suppose you have proof"...as a sarcastic rejoiner.)

But for you to suggest that I have insisted on proof pretty much establishes that you don't know what you are talking about.

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As a matter of fact, religion is technically "irrational." By "irrational" is meant all the stuff (and, think, there is a LOT of it) that can't, so far, lie within the domain of science. I'm using "irrationality" in a very specific sense here - it does not imply anything bad or insane (although it can be used in this way).

Say what you've got to say...or don't say it. But this pretend intellectualism here is second rate.

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I did think of something which might be helpful. What we listed the things we believe in. I wonder what that would reveal. I highly suspect there would be a lot of beautiful irrationality involved.

Only for the people who "believe" in stuff.

There are some of us who are mature and self-assured enough to talk about what we guess, what we estimate, what we suppose, what we opine...without ever getting into that "I believe..." nonsense.

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I don't understand your condecending sarcasm at all. I apologized for misspelling your name. What is your problem? Why do you have the need to get so personal? Why do you feel the need to insult me? What is this bar-room brawl attitude? I don't have GUTS? I'm a "childish" "pretend intellectual?" And you are the mature, self-assured one?

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Hi Everyone,

Well, looks like Momma got here just in time! LOL. Ok, Frank and Doomed, no fighting. Frank, you have been doing great at being civil in this thread and you know how much I appreciate that!

Doomed, Frank can have an abrasive manner at times, but believe me, he really is not being that way here. Trust me on that one!

Hi Intrepid! How are you! Missed you guys.

C.I., you haven't changed a bit!

Hi Phoenix, sorry I am getting here so late on this. Been working on my Care Angels project we have going nationwide and I haven't had a minute's time away from that for a few days.

I have read all the posts in this thread and we are still at the (it sounds like to some) you can't be intelligent and believe, or something to that effect.

I can only say, as I have before, that Christianity is based on faith. If there were absolute proof it would all be a no brainer then, wouldn't it? But it's not. There are so many different religions and so many interpretations of each religion. So, I would have to think that yes, it would take some intelligence also to chose which faith you accept. Now, the concept of Christ dying on the cross is perfectly clear to me, but to others they view it as a barbaric act of God sacrificing His son for man. Well, if you don't understand the concept of the love behind that sacrifice, then yes, it may seem barbaric. The way Christ died certainly was barbaric. I had a show on the other day while I was working at the computer. These scientists were trying to prove whether it was possible or not for Christ to have died in the six hours claimed in the Bible. Well, they proved it was scientifically possible. But, of course, that doesn't prove it happened. That's where faith comes in.

And blind faith? I don't know about that, Frank. I can say that because I know in my life I have experienced God's presence. I don't mean He showed Himself to me or I had a vision. I mean how His teachings work in my life. I trust in Him completely. And no, He does not always answer my prayer, but more often than not, whatever does end up happening was better for me anyway.

The one reason religion and faith is so hard to discuss is because you are dealing with so many "unproven" facts. But again, what is religion without faith? What good would faith be if it had to be proven to be the thing to have?

Yes, I have many questions about the Bible. Some can be answered and some cannot. And yes, those that cannot I feel that I have to leave that to God's wisdom. So, I guess you could say that intellect does come into play when you are deciding which things of the Bible you believe do and do not come into play into today's world. Yes, the Bible says slaves were owned. I don't believe they should be now. The OT points out some pretty severe punishments for some seemingly lesser offenses, but, again, you have to take into consideration that the times were different and Christ was not in the world. And yes, I know He didn't come to change the law, but this is one of those places I think you have to use your intellect and realize you aren't supposed to go out and kill some guy because he sleeps with another guy or stone your son because he's a drunkard. So, yes, you have to apply intellect. But, you cannot expect faith to be totally intellectually based.

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Doomed wrote:

I don't understand your condecending sarcasm at all. I apologized for misspelling your name.

Since you did it twice...it seemed like it was intentional. It is only five letters long...so I was uninclined to consider it a mistake. I'll take your word that it was.

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What is your problem? Why do you have the need to get so personal? Why do you feel the need to insult me? What is this bar-room brawl attitude? I don't have GUTS? I'm a "childish" "pretend intellectual?" And you are the mature, self-assured one?

Re-read what I wrote! If you still see my comments as an attack on your personally...I apologize and will guard against it in the future.

In any case, earlier, you wrote:

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Apsia - I worked on a reply quite a while but realized I needed to know exactly what you mean by "blind guesses" of the religious, i.e., about what are you saying they are "guessing?" Please give a few concrete examples if you can - Thank you.

I can...and did!

I wrote:

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Most of the theists posting here are "blindly guessing" that there is a God.

They are "blindly guessing" that the God is a personal God...a God with expectations of humans.

They are "blindly guessing" that they know what those expectations are.

I hope that gives you enough to work on.

This is all opinion, of course...but it gives you a "concrete example" or two of what I mean.

Are you going to comment now that I've made it clear?

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Momma Angel wrote:

I can only say, as I have before, that Christianity is based on faith. If there were absolute proof it would all be a no brainer then, wouldn't it? But it's not. There are so many different religions and so many interpretations of each religion. So, I would have to think that yes, it would take some intelligence also to chose which faith you accept.

Actually...it can be done by flipping a coin.

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Now, the concept of Christ dying on the cross is perfectly clear to me, but to others they view it as a barbaric act of God sacrificing His son for man. Well, if you don't understand the concept of the love behind that sacrifice, then yes, it may seem barbaric.

That thought can just as easily be written as..."If you are willing to rationalize an essentially barbaric act to be an act of love...then it won't seem barbaric."

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The way Christ died certainly was barbaric. I had a show on the other day while I was working at the computer. These scientists were trying to prove whether it was possible or not for Christ to have died in the six hours claimed in the Bible. Well, they proved it was scientifically possible. But, of course, that doesn't prove it happened. That's where faith comes in.

Yes. You can make a guess...and insist it is correct NO MATTER WHAT. That essentially is what "faith" is in this context. You are acknowledging that it cannot be known...and you are insisting that one of the possibilities is the one you are guessing...and you are insisting that your guess has to be correct.

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And blind faith? I don't know about that, Frank. I can say that because I know in my life I have experienced God's presence.

Of course you can say that, MA. I can say that I can beat Mike Tyson in a fistfight. But the fact that you can say something doesn't make it so.

As for "experiencing God's presence"...well, my regular question applies to this situation: "How do you know you are not deluding yourself?" (Hint: You don't...and may very well be deluding yourself to suppose you've "experienced" your god.)

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I don't mean He showed Himself to me or I had a vision. I mean how His teachings work in my life. I trust in Him completely. And no, He does not always answer my prayer, but more often than not, whatever does end up happening was better for me anyway.

Once again..."How do you know that you are not deluding yourself." (Same hint applies.)

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The one reason religion and faith is so hard to discuss is because you are dealing with so many "unproven" facts. But again, what is religion without faith? What good would faith be if it had to be proven to be the thing to have?

The only reason you folks put so much stock in "faith"...is because that is all you have, MA. You are all guessing there is a God...guessing that the god of the Bible is that God...guessing that your god has expectations of humans....guessing that those expectations have been revealed. And you have absolutely nothing other than guesses to work with. So you make "faith" into a virtue...when in fact, it is merely guessing and insisting. Blindly guessing...and bullheadedly insisting.

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Yes, the Bible says slaves were owned. I don't believe they should be now.

The Bible says a heck of a lot more than that, MA...and you know it. The Bible says that GOD...the supposed "creator" of our planet; our sun; the other 200+ billion stars in our galaxy; the untold hundreds of billions of other galaxies...told ancient Hebrews on their trek out of slavery in Egypt...that when they finally settled down, they could buy, sell, and own other human beings as slaves.

Your god said that was completely okay and moral as far as it was concerned....in the same section of the Bible as the god said that if a man engages in homosexual activity...he and his partner should be stoned to death.

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The OT points out some pretty severe punishments for some seemingly lesser offenses, but, again, you have to take into consideration that the times were different and Christ was not in the world.

Why would that make a difference to a GOD?

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And yes, I know He didn't come to change the law, but this is one of those places I think you have to use your intellect and realize you aren't supposed to go out and kill some guy because he sleeps with another guy or stone your son because he's a drunkard. So, yes, you have to apply intellect. But, you cannot expect faith to be totally intellectually based.

You did a good job of remembering all the objections to your reasoning that I and others have presented.

But why would your god advise people of those things????

Can't you see that this makes no sense whatsoever?

Can you truly not see blatant rationalization of the first order...when it is right there in full view?

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Frank,

I have to admit this, you are doing one fine job of being civil. I almost (no, not eve almost) miss the real you! Laughing

I can't explain it any better than I have, Frank. I wish I could. If you want to call my faith a guess on my part, so be it. Doesn't really matter what one calls it. I have faith. I believe in God. And this effects you how?

I'm happy. I have a good life. Sure, I have my troubles, but we all do. I guess my real question to you is this: if I (or other Christians) are happy and content with what we believe, why would you or anyone else want to take that away? Now, I do understand about the Christians that force it down your throat and I tend to agree with you there (only about that they shouldn't do that), but what about those that don't try to force it? So, we can't explain everything in the Bible. So, He's God. How can a human being explain God? I don't think anyone can. So, I answer your questions and other's questions and I don't mind doing it. I just find it so odd that someone who doesn't believe one way or the other would seemingly care so much that others do.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I have to admit this, you are doing one fine job of being civil. I almost (no, not eve almost) miss the real you!

This is the "real me." Twisted Evil

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I can't explain it any better than I have, Frank. I wish I could. If you want to call my faith a guess on my part, so be it. Doesn't really matter what one calls it. I have faith. I believe in God. And this effects you how?

Doesn't effect me at all. (More about this in a few seconds.)

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I'm happy. I have a good life. Sure, I have my troubles, but we all do.

I'm happy you are happy and have a good life. I am happy...and have a spectacular life also.

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I guess my real question to you is this: if I (or other Christians) are happy and content with what we believe, why would you or anyone else want to take that away?

We shouldn't.

But if you come onto an Internet forum to discuss these issues...should we be excluded from participating?

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Now, I do understand about the Christians that force it down your throat and I tend to agree with you there (only about that they shouldn't do that), but what about those that don't try to force it?

My late mother was a devout Christian. One of my brothers, several of my aunts and cousins...and many close friends are devout Christians. I love each and every one of them. And I love you, MA...and all the other Christians here that I have said I love. Truly.

I discussed this very point with Joe Nation and Kicky Thrursday night on the Frying Pan while we were sharing a few drinks and enjoying the gorgeous sunset over the Hudson River.

I love you folks.

But this is an Internet forum devoted to discussing these issues...and I will discuss them from my perspective...which necessarily conflicts with yours.

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So, we can't explain everything in the Bible.

I think the problem goes much, much deeper than that.

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So, He's God. How can a human being explain God?

Maybe there is no God.

One way to deal rationally with existence is to simply acknowledge that.

The fact that you folks cannot even acknowledge that there is the possibility that there is no God...and that you are merely choosing to "believe" there is...

...tells a lot more about your motivation than you may want to acknowledge.

And the fact that you go further and choose to "believe" that the god has an agenda for humans...and that you, personally, somehow know what that agenda is...tells even more.

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I don't think anyone can. So, I answer your questions and other's questions and I don't mind doing it. I just find it so odd that someone who doesn't believe one way or the other would seemingly care so much that others do.

Well...once again...if you consider the fact that this is an Internet forum specifically designed to discuss the very issues we are discussing here...maybe it wouldn't seem so odd. In fact...it might actually seem what it actually is...reasonable...and to be expected.

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Can Religious Thought and Intellectual Honesty Coexist?

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