Time for the world to save America

Is that the Jerry Pournell who co-wrote some really good sf with Larry Niven? I think from memory one of their books was something like "The Mote in God's Eye" or something similar, many years since I read it.

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goodfielder wrote:

Is that the Jerry Pournell who co-wrote some really good sf with Larry Niven? I think from memory one of their books was something like "The Mote in God's Eye" or something similar, many years since I read it.

Yes. Also the Pournelle who wrote for Byte magazine for years.

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Lash wrote:

Creating a new government from the bottom up, with people who have never experienced self-determination IS a struggle for independance and that is EXACTLY what is going on right now--and it goes on under fire of terrorists who are desperate to make it fail--and in who's greedy, murderous hands you throw Iraq, if you follow the stupid weak-willed warblings of idiots like Pournelle.

It IS a struggle for independance.

A withdrawal now is aiding and abetting the enemy.

What a crock. Do you even know who the enemy are? I doubt it. I doubt you even know what the strategic goals of the invasion are. I doubt you know much at all.

But arguing with you Lash is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes my time and annoys the pig.

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Yes. Do we extol the righteous opinions of everyone who writes an article of column...?

I don't think so.

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I'm not putting Pournelle forward because of his SF- or IT-related writings. He's also a military historian. And considerably educated on the subjects of strategy, tactics, statesmanship, and diplomacy.

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DrewDad wrote:

Lash wrote:
Creating a new government from the bottom up, with people who have never experienced self-determination IS a struggle for independance and that is EXACTLY what is going on right now--and it goes on under fire of terrorists who are desperate to make it fail--and in who's greedy, murderous hands you throw Iraq, if you follow the stupid weak-willed warblings of idiots like Pournelle.

It IS a struggle for independance.

A withdrawal now is aiding and abetting the enemy.

What a crock. Do you even know who the enemy are? I doubt it. I doubt you even know what the strategic goals of the invasion are. I doubt you know much at all.

But arguing with you Lash is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes my time and annoys the pig.

Yeah. I know you have a completely different opinion than I do.

I think Islamic terrorists and their financial backers are the enemy in this war.

You act as though it's the US government.

I've never seen you offer any of your own insight or original information about the war, or anything else. really. Cute dodge, though. Yu have that MO down pretty well. Hide original or pertinent thinking with pig analogy. Careless people may actually think you know what you're talking about.

So, who's the enemy? What were the strategic goals? Dazzle everyone with your stunning new information.

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DrewDad wrote:

I'm not putting Pournelle forward because of his SF- or IT-related writings. He's also a military historian. And considerably educated on the subjects of strategy, tactics, statesmanship, and diplomacy.

There are a lot of those walking around. We call them Republicans.

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DrewDad wrote:

goodfielder wrote:
Is that the Jerry Pournell who co-wrote some really good sf with Larry Niven? I think from memory one of their books was something like "The Mote in God's Eye" or something similar, many years since I read it.

Yes. Also the Pournelle who wrote for Byte magazine for years.

Thanks DD.

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Lash wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
I'm not putting Pournelle forward because of his SF- or IT-related writings. He's also a military historian. And considerably educated on the subjects of strategy, tactics, statesmanship, and diplomacy.

There are a lot of those walking around. We call them Republicans.

Thanks, I needed that one.

Sadly, we don't call them advisors to President Bush.

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Lash wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Lash wrote:
Creating a new government from the bottom up, with people who have never experienced self-determination IS a struggle for independance and that is EXACTLY what is going on right now--and it goes on under fire of terrorists who are desperate to make it fail--and in who's greedy, murderous hands you throw Iraq, if you follow the stupid weak-willed warblings of idiots like Pournelle.

It IS a struggle for independance.

A withdrawal now is aiding and abetting the enemy.

What a crock. Do you even know who the enemy are? I doubt it. I doubt you even know what the strategic goals of the invasion are. I doubt you know much at all.

But arguing with you Lash is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes my time and annoys the pig.

Yeah. I know you have a completely different opinion than I do.

I think Islamic terrorists and their financial backers are the enemy in this war.

You act as though it's the US government.

I've never seen you offer any of your own insight or original information about the war, or anything else. really. Cute dodge, though. Yu have that MO down pretty well. Hide original or pertinent thinking with pig analogy. Careless people may actually think you know what you're talking about.

So, who's the enemy? What were the strategic goals? Dazzle everyone with your stunning new information.

No, I don't act as though it's the US government. I do think the present administration has acted extremely, even criminally, stupidly. I don't think they have a clue as to how to combat terrorism.

("Here, let me pack my soldiers like fish in a barrel. Hah! Now try to shoot them...")

Do I have new information? No. Do I know the strategic goals? Only those that were told to the American people. All of which are hogwash if one has the brains of a sea slug.

I posted Pournelle's assessment because it agrees with my own. I asked you those questions to see if you have any clue as to what you are talking about. So far, there's no light showing in the attic.

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Note to self: dump all old Robert Heinlein papebacks and clothbound books and replace with Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven ones :wink:

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DD--

I have spoken at length about my views re the war all over this site.

Why don't you back up your opinion that we should leave Iraq. What do you think will happen when we do? Why leave and not give them a chance to get on their feet before abandoning them to warlords? How will you fight the teeming nest of terrorists who will put their shingle up in Iraq when we leave? What is your solution, if this one is no good, in your opinion?

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How long will your solution take and what are the flaws in the Democracy agenda?

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This has been mentioned elsewhere in one of the many Iraq-related threads in A2K but it's time for the US to admit that its strategy has failed in Iraq, swallow some pride and get the situation "internationalised" and properly so, not with some sort of pretend international coalition.

But Bush, because of his psychopathology, his inability to admit that he has presided over yet another failure, this time not a business going under - something much worse, will not do that. It's obvious to the rest of the world what must be done but no, Mr Stubborn is going to "stay the course". Of course he will, he ain't doin' the hurtin'.

Bah! Let's all invad Zimbabwe, they really do need it.

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The strategy has not failed.

The strategy is in the middle of a great success.

Why are people so desperate to prevent success?

Oh yeah, I know. A Democrat couldn't get elected in a one man race when peace CONTINUES to break out all over the world.

A failure would be losing the war. A failure would be finding no willing Iraqis to form a government. A failure would be their refusal to work together. A failure would have been a very low turn out for the election. They were waving their blue fingers in the cameras. They are stepping up and facing attack and death in their bid for freedom.

Don't allow partisan politics to drive you to want their failure and ours.

Don't be on the side of those who want Iraq to fail.

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bm

(Excellent & thought provoking article & discussion, BBB.)

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Lash wrote:

The strategy has not failed.

The strategy is in the middle of a great success.

Why are people so desperate to prevent success?

Oh yeah, I know. A Democrat couldn't get elected in a one man race when peace CONTINUES to break out all over the world.

A failure would be losing the war. A failure would be finding no willing Iraqis to form a government. A failure would be their refusal to work together. A failure would have been a very low turn out for the election. They were waving their blue fingers in the cameras. They are stepping up and facing attack and death in their bid for freedom.

Don't allow partisan politics to drive you to want their failure and ours.

Don't be on the side of those who want Iraq to fail.

I think it's beyond that Lash. I think it's "how can the mess be fixed?".

But on a happier note, at least I'm not guilty of schadenfreunde. With Bush, it's a deep seated disgust with both the man and the politician.

He and his administration should face criminal charges for what they have done. That's if he ever relinquishes power.

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These Bush supporters are delusional fanatics. Were out of troops.they want to vote for war, they want to talk about war but they want poor white, black and brown people to fight it. People here have recognized and warned the country of bush's mistakes since before the war started but they were suppressed. Now they got what they wanted. Rove intentionally separated the country. (I have to go to work, can't finish)

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The birth of a nation isn't a mess that should be fixed--it's a miracle in progress, with afterbirth. We're cleaning that up right now.

DD--

I'd like to hear your solution to terrorism and the imploding Middle East. If you get your way, what do you do when the troops come home? Do you have a better, workable plan?

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Fortunately, I'm not in charge of this mass-murder. Had I been in charge then there would not have been the clueless invasion to begin with.

"Oh dear, an insurgency? Who could have predicted that?"

Er... Practically anyone with an ounce of sense?

Our military is designed to project power; it is not designed as a police force. The administration should have planned for this, instead of putting our soldiers in a mission that they are poorly equipped and porly trained to deal with.

My solution at this point would be to ask for international assistance. We should integrate other forces into the Iraqi police force until they are properly trained and a fully professional organization in their own right.

I would ask for international assistance with rebuilding the infrastructure. People with power and water do not cause the same problems.

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