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Mom of Slain Soldier Stages Bush Protest

 
 
stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 11:14 am
"Sheehan has been involved in protests against Bush since last year. She founded Gold Star Families for Peace...She said she decided to seek another audience with Bush when she heard his comments about the war last week, after a spike in American deaths. The fallen men and women "died in a noble cause," Bush said Wednesday. "Their families can know that we will honor their loved ones' sacrifice by completing the mission."

"Sheehan said she wants to tell Bush not to use her son's death as a reason to continue the war, and to ask "why (Bush's twin daughters) Jenna and Barbara and the other children of the architects of this disastrous war are not in harm's way, if the cause is so noble."

ArmyTimes.com, August 8, 2005
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stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 11:26 am
Thats a good question why are the architects of the invasion not sending their kids to fight?

That includes Bush and British PM Blair.

Why are these guys happy to exceute their 'full proof' plans with other peoples kids?

Do they believe that the successful take over of iraq via Haliburton and other corporations is a way to honor the dead and the final marker of success?

Does anyone believe that this war was about WMD's, or Al Qaeda ?? no i dont think any sane person does.

So what was the reason that our fine brave young men and women are dying for? and why is this cause so noble that their kids shouldnt partake in the honor?
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rhythm synergy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 01:17 pm
Quote:
"Sheehan said she wants to tell Bush not to use her son's death as a reason to continue the war, and to ask "why (Bush's twin daughters) Jenna and Barbara and the other children of the architects of this disastrous war are not in harm's way, if the cause is so noble."


I think you have to understand that you DON't Make decisions for your kids. My parents don't make my decision. And since You have to be over 18 to join the army, you are legally an adult and have that decision in your hands.

Therefore, since parents make the decision for their kids, why is this person blaming the 'architects of this disastrous war' for not sending their kids? Their children has every right to make that decision. If they don't want to go, then so be it. But you cannot blame the 'parents.'
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 01:50 pm
rhythm.synergy wrote:
Quote:
"Sheehan said she wants to tell Bush not to use her son's death as a reason to continue the war, and to ask "why (Bush's twin daughters) Jenna and Barbara and the other children of the architects of this disastrous war are not in harm's way, if the cause is so noble."


I think you have to understand that you DON't Make decisions for your kids. My parents don't make my decision. And since You have to be over 18 to join the army, you are legally an adult and have that decision in your hands.

Therefore, since parents make the decision for their kids, why is this person blaming the 'architects of this disastrous war' for not sending their kids? Their children has every right to make that decision. If they don't want to go, then so be it. But you cannot blame the 'parents.'


i know you all are going to hate me on this one, but Bush didn't force anyone else's kids to join the military either. he didn't institute the draft. they all signed up of their own free will. you can argue that they may not have realized they would be risking their lives, but i find that hard to believe especially since the marines made sure my brother in law had everything in place in case he didn't come back before they sent him to bahrain. and i for one would not have blamed bush for his death if he had died.

you can also argue that we shouldn't be there in the first place, but who's to say what saddam truly had in his possession up until we invaded. it has been said that UN inspectors were there and found nothing, but is it not at all inside the realm of possibility that saddam hid stuff from them? we just don't know. if it is truly that easy to get better bombs into iraq from iran now (can't remember if that was on this thread or another), who's to think it wasn't that easy to get them out? the point is, we just don't know 100% for sure. and to make sure that no matter what it wouldn't happen, we went in.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 01:54 pm
We can accept that each soldier is responsible for their decision to join up and still hold the commander-in-chief responsible for making decisions which put them in danger unnecessarily, and for dubious reasons.
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 01:58 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
We can accept that each soldier is responsible for their decision to join up and still hold the commander-in-chief responsible for making decisions which put them in danger unnecessarily, and for dubious reasons.


i agree, but do we know 100% for sure that it was unnecessary? i don't. and until i can say that saddam and his regime presented absolutely no threat to the US, i can't say that it was unnecessary.

ack, i have been drawn into the political thread again. Confused
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rhythm synergy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 01:58 pm
I've also heard some people argue that WWII could have been stopped if someone acted agains Hitler earlier on when he's forces weren't as many. But the society in general back then we're reluctant to go to war after experience WWI.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 02:06 pm
dragon49 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
We can accept that each soldier is responsible for their decision to join up and still hold the commander-in-chief responsible for making decisions which put them in danger unnecessarily, and for dubious reasons.


i agree, but do we know 100% for sure that it was unnecessary? i don't. and until i can say that saddam and his regime presented absolutely no threat to the US, i can't say that it was unnecessary.

ack, i have been drawn into the political thread again. Confused


It would appear that the mother is not convinced as to its necessity and its noble goals. For me, there is a threshold that should be met in order to start a war. If it is as low as "less than 100% certainty that there is no threat" then every nation in the world right now is justified in starting a war with another. A threat that, when compared to other threats in the world, ranks relatively low is not enough. In this case, I'm not even sure we have that. Apparently, neither is the mother in question.

Americans will likely never come to a consensus as to whether the war was justified, but we can't just say it doesn't matter because the soldiers volunteered. It does matter.
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 02:26 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
It would appear that the mother is not convinced as to its necessity and its noble goals. For me, there is a threshold that should be met in order to start a war. If it is as low as "less than 100% certainty that there is no threat" then every nation in the world right now is justified in starting a war with another. A threat that, when compared to other threats in the world, ranks relatively low is not enough. In this case, I'm not even sure we have that. Apparently, neither is the mother in question.

Americans will likely never come to a consensus as to whether the war was justified, but we can't just say it doesn't matter because the soldiers volunteered. It does matter.


true enough. i just can't bring myself to blame someone who "we the people" elected to make these decisions for us. i realize that some didn't vote for him so the feeling of "i didn't elect him" would come into play understandably. and don't get me wrong, i understand where she is coming from and i applaud her for standing up for what she believes. i just don't agree with her. but that is the beauty of the US, she can do what she is doing because she believes it.

my reasoning for not agreeing is that people join the military every day knowing that it is possible they could die defending their country. when they sign up, they agree to do what they are told (which is one reason why i couldn't do it-have trouble with that do it because i told you to mentality). i see your point that it was his decision to put our troops in harm's way, but anyone's son/daughter/father/any relative, friend, etc agreed to be put in harm's way when they signed the dotted line.

and i agree it does matter to some degree, but to wholly blame bush for every person's death is over the top. and maybe you aren't and i read into that (i apologize if i did freeduck), but that it how it seems this woman is portraying what happened-bush killed her son. did his decision have a factor in his death, obviously, but there were alot of other things that had to happen for his death to occur.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 02:37 pm
dragon49 wrote:
my reasoning for not agreeing is that people join the military every day knowing that it is possible they could die defending their country. when they sign up, they agree to do what they are told (which is one reason why i couldn't do it-have trouble with that do it because i told you to mentality). i see your point that it was his decision to put our troops in harm's way, but anyone's son/daughter/father/any relative, friend, etc agreed to be put in harm's way when they signed the dotted line.


Certainly that's true and it's why I didn't join up either.

But just as each soldier chose to sign up and accept that they were allowing someone else to choose their destiny, the president signed up for his job too. He actually spent a lot of money and really really wanted that job. He accepted the responsibility of these weighty decisions. He has the bulk of the responsibility.

Here's another example, when the flag-waving starts and people who are against the war start getting chastised for saying bad things because it makes the troops feel bad, nobody says, well, they signed up to be in that position, they chose to be there, so it's not my responsibility to make them feel good about it.

It seems to me that soldiers are treated as heros as long as they agree with the cause. But as soon as they or their families express reservations about the validity of the mission, suddenly they become just another sucker who got snowed into signing on the dotted line.
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 02:52 pm
i guess my point is that aren't just another sucker who got snowed in. i believe based on the only experience i have had with enlisting through my brother in law, that he was well aware of his responsibilities and what may happen to him. and i for one feel anyone has the right to oppose the war. i would not chatise anyone for expressing their opinion (as long as no one is harmed in doing so), like i said i applaud her for standing up for what she believes in, i just don't agree with her.

and yes i thought it in bad taste when troops returned from vietnam and were treated badly (i was not alive for this but read history about it) but it is their right to express that opinion-albeit in truly bad taste.

after all this commentary, i must say my point is after thinking about this long and hard and listening to what you had to say and trying to see your point of view, that bush is not wholly responsible just as the troops themselves are not wholly responsible. i for one lay most of the blame on saddam and his regime. but i guess we could probably start a whole other thread on whether or not he truly posed a threat (etc).

i guess we can agree to disagree and that's ok by me Smile
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 02:55 pm
It's ok by me too. I don't agree with your take but I have certainly sincerely considered your opinion and appreciate you trying to see my point of view.
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 03:01 pm
not all us right wingers are extremists Smile

i always feel more enlightened by actually trying to stand in someone else's shoes and really understand where they are coming from, regardless if i agree. opinions are just that, they can't be right or wrong, only different. i appreciate you hearing me out too.

i have tried to stay away from political forums because people always seem to just be slandering each other, and i don't see the point in that. thanks for making my foray into politics nice.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 03:08 pm
Lets charter busses from al over the country to crawford texes.P.S Your right dragon.
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dragon49
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 03:11 pm
Amigo wrote:
Lets charter busses from al over the country to crawford texes.P.S Your right dragon.


as long as they have air conditioning...
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 03:17 pm
God yes, air conditoning. And beer, and sing alongs, and movies, and.........where were we going again? Vegas? Laughing
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stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 04:51 pm
I would question the suggestion that all young people join the army out of choice. Many join because the inequality that is rampant in todays society they have little or no choices in terms of education or career.

Even if we are to assume that they all join because thats the most important thing in their life, as opposed to being strapped for cash or being made to feel worthless by society, then it still does not excuse the immense betrayal of trust commited by the administration.

When you join you dont get told 'the army and the administration reserves the right to send you to invade a country if we have a hunch and/or of we need gas!'

These people join under trust , that the government will act responsibly and it is clear that this has not been the case.

The fact that the UN inspectors were qualified to do their job. is reflected in the fact that they were proven right!

If you want to invade countries on a hunch thinking they might become hitlers in the future why be selective in your invasion policy?

Why not invade Libya, or Saudi, or Israel or Zimbabwa or Uzbekistan etc the list goes..

This logic of 'maybe', 'perhaps' or 'possibly' is not what intelligent, responsible foreign policy is based upon!!

Lets face it were in there for the oil and our kids are getting killed for it and they were lured in on a pack of lies because they wouldnt have gone in otherwise and we would not have accepted them going in based on the real facts and now the pro-Iranains or running the chaos that was once a country.

Its time to bring em home!



Quote:
Young, Black, and in the Military
by Michaela Purdue

Recently my grandmother told me that she was very pleased that more and more black young people were enrolling in the high school Reserve Officers Training Corps program in my hometown. I listened as she told me how reassured she was that more black young people would be going into the military instead of "hanging out on the streets" or hanging out with gangs. Something about this bothered me.

Last year I left school and started working because I didn't have the money to pay for school. In thinking of ways to fix my situation, I considered going back into the military and finishing my advanced training so that I would be eligible for the G.I. Bill. I remembered when there was a time when I felt that the military was the only option I had in order to go to school. I know that there are many young black people who feel that the military is their only option. I also know that there is a lot of pressure on some young black people to go into the military because they are told that everything else around them will get them nowhere but into trouble.

When I was seventeen years old and a junior in high school, I enlisted in the US Army Reserve. During the summer between my junior and senior years I went to basic combat training (known as boot camp). Most people reacted to my joining the Army based on their perceptions of the cruel treatment in the military. They felt that the humiliation and the powerlessness that one is subjected to is the worst part of being in the military. Yes, people are treated cruelly in boot camp. We were called names like "lazy," "stupid," and "hard-headed," or we were told we were incapable of listening to directions. We were also laughed at and teased by our drill sergeants and by each other, and we were made to do things that we would not wish to do on our own. However, as a young person who had already experienced feelings of powerlessness, humiliation, and fear on a day-to-day basis, I did not consider this to be cruel. It was the usual deal.
The only difference between being at boot camp and being a young person is that for a young person there are small windows in one's life where mistreatment doesn't occur in such high volumes. I think the hardest part about being young, black, and in the military is feeling like this is our only option, feeling like the only way we will be able to get the things that we want most in life is to endure mistreatment.
As young black people who are geared toward going to college-and many young black people are not even encouraged to go-we don't want our efforts squelched by financial difficulties. We work hard in school so that we can get into a good college and lead what we consider to be successful lives. However, for many of us, the one thing that seems to stand in the way of going on to college is lack of finances. The image that comes in my mind is climbing up a rugged mountain for twelve years, a mountain with a huge gap in the middle that keeps us from getting to the other side. Then, out of nowhere, there appears a big shining boulder called the military, promising to bridge the gap in the mountain and create a safe passage to success. I saw in the military a guarantee that I would be able to get the money I would need to go to college. I could first enlist in the Army Reserve and then use that status to increase my chances of getting an Army ROTC scholarship that would pay for most of my expenses. Many black women who were in my unit in boot camp had this experience. Out of the sixty women in my platoon at boot camp, about thirty-five were black. And out of those thirty-five black women, ninety-five per cent were between the ages of seventeen and twenty-one. We were there only because we wanted to get money for college, not because we felt a deep sense of patriotism.[/u]There are other reasons why many young black people who are looking for ways to bridge the gap between financial difficulty and success through higher education look only toward the military. In recent years in the US less money is available for national academic-merit scholarships. At the same time, more money has been put towards the military. There is heavy competition for the academic scholarships that are available, and most young black people don't know that there is money available to them through small private scholarships. Also, people who seek financial aid on the basis of need end up having to applying for high-interest loans. Therefore, the military appears to be a better option for people who may run into financial trouble in college because in the military it looks like you are getting something for practically nothing.Many young black people also join the military as a direct response to the way we get treated as young people. When we are born into the world we know that we are significant and that we make a difference to everyone and everything around us. However, because we are not treated with complete respect and our thinking is not considered important, as we grow up we quickly lose our hold on our significance and we don't feel completely accepted. The military is portrayed as a place where one can find the longed-for acceptance. In the US on TV you will see countless commercials about young people enlisting in the military and finding success. "Be All You Can Be," or "We're Looking For a Few Good Men," appear in advertisements promoting enlistment into the military. They capitalize on how we, as young people, don't feel completely sure of ourselves or significant enough as we are right now.

Young black people (like all people) want acceptance - in our families, in our communities, with our friends, and in society in general. We want to know that we are significant and that we do make a difference in the world. Because of the way young people's oppression works, we are not able to notice on a day-to-day basis that we do make a difference in the world just because we exist. We don't often hear from our family, our friends, or our teachers that they are glad that we are alive. So we spend a lot of our time doing things that we hope will make us feel significant, feel like we make a difference.

By being in the military or going to school, young people feel more accepted by our family, our community, and our society than by doing things that other young people often do to find acceptance, such as joining a gang. A lot of the things that people do in gangs are harmful to themselves and to others, but there is nothing inherently wrong with getting together with a group of other young people and noticing that you have a connection with these people.

However, young people who join the military are made to think of themselves as better than those black young people who are in gangs, regardless of what those young people do in their gang. Many people feel that being in gangs means getting hooked up with "those violent black people." However, it is considered to be okay, and for many black adults it is a source of pride, to have a son or daughter walking around the neighborhood trained and paid by the government to kill other human beings and to think less of other black young people at the same time. There is something contradictory about being seventeen years old and being trained to fire automatic and semi-automatic weapons, to throw grenades, and to detonate claymore mines. We learn how to do all of these violent things under the banner of patriotism while not even being considered old enough to vote. A few years before I enlisted in the reserves and went to boot camp, there were US government initiatives to curb the increasing violence in our country, with black men and boys as the main suspects. While some black men were being accused of being violent and crippling our country, those of us in the military were being trained to use violence to represent the US, and this was considered to be okay.

Regardless of our economic situation or our inability to notice our significance in the world, there are other options available to young black people besides the military. As I discharge more and more on my experiences in the military as a young person, I'm realizing that it is important to share those experiences and to also have allies who can hold out other options to me.

(c. 1994 Black Re-emergence #8. Reprinted with permission: Rational Island of Publishers, Seattle, Washington)
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2005 06:15 pm
The military? B.B.P.W. Black,Brown, and Poor White.
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rhythm synergy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:29 am
stevewonder, that's quite sad, but a reality, having to depend on the military financial stability, future education and acceptance. I can emphatize with this ppl; that it seems unfair that they're going off for some1 else's war, even though they don't want to. I underestand they might not have many options, but this people still had (have?) a choice to make. And they choose to join the miltary. Even if they might have been pressure by family/friends/etc., they stil had that choice.
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stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 05:57 pm
Rhythm thanks for you post.
sure many blacks, latinos and poor whites find themselves in between a rock and hard place.
They could make the decision not to join but you overlooked the other point being made that when they do decide to join they expect their government to act responsibily as you will no doubt agree we all do!

If they joined it did not give the administration the right to squander their lives.
If we dont find this disturbing and wrong then we can assume hope just left the building.
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