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War with China?

 
 
Jamesw84
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2005 03:52 am
goodfielder wrote:
James - the Japanese gave the world the world meaning death from overwork. But that doesn't validate your claims.

I can say Australians are idiots because they have continually voted for a government which is going to destroy workers rights and which has engineered a working environment where we work, on average, the second longest number of hours in all the countries of all those listed in the OECD.

I would be right about one fact (second longest hours of work) but I would be wrong in calling all Australians idiots.

Just because I think it's so doesn't make it so.


Your right on the fact that Australians are idiots for voting for John Howard. He is indecisive, cowardly and weak. How can we get someone like him to lead our country? When you hear him speak in public, he always hesitates, like as if he is scared to say what hes really thinking and has to put up a facade to hide his real intentions... The introduction of the GST was probably the most idiotic thing introduced by his party.
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 11:21 pm
mysteryman please do not think I am ignoring you but I not be able to give you a reply until end of November. Sorry for the delay.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:00 am
mysteryman wrote:
You fail to mention Tibet,which was an independent country before invaded and occupied by China in 1950.


You know, this is the bit that confuses me. Looking at an old map of the ancient Chinese Empire, I could have sworn that Tibet was a part of it some time ago up until the collapse of the Empire. The Tibetans must have had a very short period of independence before the Communists regained control of that area. (Either that or the map was wrong).

Quote:
You also fail to mention the Chinese invasion of North Korea,AFTER they N Koreans invaded South Korea and were repulsed by the US.
China invaded N Korea as an ally of NK,and almost succeeded in defeating the UN forces.


Invasion? You must admit that word kind of gives the wrong impression. You're almost making it sound as if the North Koreans didn't want the Chinese help.

Quote:
Then there was the 1910 invasion of Tibet by China,and the 1788 invasion of Nepal by Chinese forces.


Well, it's kinda easy to forget the 1788 invasion, just like it's kind of easy to forget how the US invaded and took over what land once belonged to the Native Americans.

Quote:
Oh really???
Then what about this from wikepedia...
"With one of the world's longest periods of uninterrupted civilization and the world's longest continuously used written language system, China's history has been largely characterized by repeated divisions and reunifications amid alternating periods of peace and war, and violent imperial dynastic change. The country's territorial extent expanded outwards from a core area in the North China Plain, and varied according to its moving fortunes to include multiple regions of East, Northeast, and Central Asia. For centuries, Imperial China was also one of the world's most technologically advanced civilizations, and East Asia's dominant cultural influence, with an impact lasting to the present day throughout the region."

That doesnt jibe with what you are claiming.


Selective reading won't help you.

Actually, the Chinese have the WWII Japanese invasion to thank for the current Communist rule. The Japanese weakened the Nationalist Forces so much that the Communists had the strength to take over after the invasion.

In the period of ~1600 to 1900, the Emperors of China deemed all Western technology irrelevant and inferior. They practically cut off the Empire from all technology, forcing the Western powers to trade in gold and silver, and eventually opium.

This made it impossible for the transfer of technology from the West to the East, thus weakening China's power. While Chinese technology, democracy and millitary stagnated, the rest of the world overtook it.

Before the Empire collapsed, the Government was corrupt, there was no democracy and the people were poor, very poor. This poverty made Communsim quite attractive and with the Nationalists weakened by invading Japanese Forces in WWII, it is only natural for the Chinese to have adopted Communism.

Those countries that have become Communist are almost always those where the ruling classes have failed to keep power and failed to oppress the Communists.

Quote:
I have been to China,and find it a "30 yard" country.
Most of China looks beautiful from 30 yards away,but when you get closer,you can see the ugly side of the country and its govt.
There are many parts of China that are beautiful,but the repressive policies and the brutality of its govt mar the beauty of the people and the country itself.


Sometimes, though, it's the ugliness of the Chinese mentality. Poisoning the food of rival cafe owners out of jealousy? Eating all sorts of animals that really shouldn't be eaten? Pirating DVDs and all sorts of computer programs?
0 Replies
 
kounter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 10:15 pm
I second Wolf O'Donnell and following "MysteryMans" post that China is a "30"yard country, I find America a -100yard country. It sucks from afar and it sucks up close. At least China doesn't go minding other peoples business. (Ahem, Iraq, Ahem, Afghanistan, Ahem, Cuba, Ahem, too many to list.)
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 03:13 pm
kounter wrote:
I second Wolf O'Donnell and following "MysteryMans" post that China is a "30"yard country, I find America a -100yard country. It sucks from afar and it sucks up close. At least China doesn't go minding other peoples business. (Ahem, Iraq, Ahem, Afghanistan, Ahem, Cuba, Ahem, too many to list.)


Lets see...
China INVADED Tibet
China helped with the invasion of South Korea
China keeps threatening Taiwan
China provided weapons and supplies to North Vietnam
China has had constant border fights with Russia
China has invaded Nepal
China pirates other countries inventions
China has threatened the Spratly Islands (property of the Phillipines)

Shall I go on?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 03:59 pm
For once, mysteryman, I totally agree with you. (Must go take my temperature now and check my pulse.)
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:08 pm
Didn't the Catholic priest hide the silk worm in the hollow of his cane back to Europe?
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Jamesw84
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 12:00 pm
mysteryman wrote:
kounter wrote:
I second Wolf O'Donnell and following "MysteryMans" post that China is a "30"yard country, I find America a -100yard country. It sucks from afar and it sucks up close. At least China doesn't go minding other peoples business. (Ahem, Iraq, Ahem, Afghanistan, Ahem, Cuba, Ahem, too many to list.)


Lets see...
China INVADED Tibet
China helped with the invasion of South Korea
China keeps threatening Taiwan
China provided weapons and supplies to North Vietnam
China has had constant border fights with Russia
China has invaded Nepal
China pirates other countries inventions
China has threatened the Spratly Islands (property of the Phillipines)

Shall I go on?


You look like a racist redneck
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 12:17 pm
Jamesw84 wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
kounter wrote:
I second Wolf O'Donnell and following "MysteryMans" post that China is a "30"yard country, I find America a -100yard country. It sucks from afar and it sucks up close. At least China doesn't go minding other peoples business. (Ahem, Iraq, Ahem, Afghanistan, Ahem, Cuba, Ahem, too many to list.)


Lets see...
China INVADED Tibet
China helped with the invasion of South Korea
China keeps threatening Taiwan
China provided weapons and supplies to North Vietnam
China has had constant border fights with Russia
China has invaded Nepal
China pirates other countries inventions
China has threatened the Spratly Islands (property of the Phillipines)

Shall I go on?


You look like a racist redneck


How am I a rascist?
The things I listed are all known facts.

Is it rascist to tell the truth?
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Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 12:26 pm
An interesting topic...
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 02:50 pm
mysteryman, it's probably racist to spell it 'rascist.' Smile
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Nov, 2005 08:26 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
For once, mysteryman, I totally agree with you. (Must go take my temperature now and check my pulse.)


So,do you have a fever?
Is your pulse normal?
Are you feeling ok?
0 Replies
 
kounter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Nov, 2005 09:04 pm
China INVADED Tibet
China helped with the invasion of South Korea
China keeps threatening Taiwan
China provided weapons and supplies to North Vietnam
China has had constant border fights with Russia
China has invaded Nepal
China pirates other countries inventions
China has threatened the Spratly Islands (property of the Phillipines)

Above, I Quote mysteryman

okay lets see...

AMERICA INVADED IRAQ without the Sanction of the UN (susprise, susprise)

AMERICA INVADED AFGHANISTAN

AMERICA TRIED TO INVADE CUBA (BAY OF PIGS LANDING) through CUBAN EXILES

so WHAT if CHINA threatens TAIWAN?? ITS OURS!! YOU PEOPLE THREATEN IRAN, NORTH KOREA, (not to mention IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN etc)

WHO GIVES A DAMMN ABOUT BORDER DISPUTES, EVERY COUNTRY HAS THEM

OF COURSE CHINA WOULD HELP NORTH VIETNAM, BETTER THAN HELPING SOUTH VIETNAM.

CHINA DOESN"T GO AROUND TELLING OTHER PEOPLE TO DESTROY THEIR NUCLEAR WEAPONS WHEN THE"RE SITTING ON THE LARGEST PILE THEMSELVES (AMERICA AGAIN)

SO WHAT IF WE PIRATE OTHER PEOPLES INVENTIONS? OUR MANUAL OF WARFARE (Sun Tzu ART OF WAR ) IS STUDIED BY THE AMERICAN ARMY (SO THATS WHY YOU AMEICANS THINK YOU"RE SO GOOD)

AUTHORS NOTE - APOLOGIES TO ALL AMERICANS WHO SIDE WITH ME, UNFORTUNATELY SOME RATHER 'mysterious' PERSON HAS DECIDED TO ARGUE A POINT WHICH IS OBVIOUS TO THE STUPID, DUMB AND IDIOTIC THAT ITS WRONG. (hmm... makes you wonder....)
0 Replies
 
Jamesw84
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 03:52 pm
Welcome Kounter:So true what you have said

The west is always full of hypocrites....and always will be
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 06:21 pm
kounter wrote:
China INVADED Tibet
China helped with the invasion of South Korea
China keeps threatening Taiwan
China provided weapons and supplies to North Vietnam
China has had constant border fights with Russia
China has invaded Nepal
China pirates other countries inventions
China has threatened the Spratly Islands (property of the Phillipines)

Above, I Quote mysteryman

okay lets see...

AMERICA INVADED IRAQ without the Sanction of the UN (susprise, susprise)

AMERICA INVADED AFGHANISTAN

AMERICA TRIED TO INVADE CUBA (BAY OF PIGS LANDING) through CUBAN EXILES

so WHAT if CHINA threatens TAIWAN?? ITS OURS!! YOU PEOPLE THREATEN IRAN, NORTH KOREA, (not to mention IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN etc)

WHO GIVES A DAMMN ABOUT BORDER DISPUTES, EVERY COUNTRY HAS THEM

OF COURSE CHINA WOULD HELP NORTH VIETNAM, BETTER THAN HELPING SOUTH VIETNAM.

CHINA DOESN"T GO AROUND TELLING OTHER PEOPLE TO DESTROY THEIR NUCLEAR WEAPONS WHEN THE"RE SITTING ON THE LARGEST PILE THEMSELVES (AMERICA AGAIN)

SO WHAT IF WE PIRATE OTHER PEOPLES INVENTIONS? OUR MANUAL OF WARFARE (Sun Tzu ART OF WAR ) IS STUDIED BY THE AMERICAN ARMY (SO THATS WHY YOU AMEICANS THINK YOU"RE SO GOOD)

AUTHORS NOTE - APOLOGIES TO ALL AMERICANS WHO SIDE WITH ME, UNFORTUNATELY SOME RATHER 'mysterious' PERSON HAS DECIDED TO ARGUE A POINT WHICH IS OBVIOUS TO THE STUPID, DUMB AND IDIOTIC THAT ITS WRONG. (hmm... makes you wonder....)


What UN sanction did China have when they invaded Tibet?
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 09:47 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Lets see...
China INVADED Tibet
China helped with the invasion of South Korea
China keeps threatening Taiwan
China provided weapons and supplies to North Vietnam
China has had constant border fights with Russia
China has invaded Nepal
China pirates other countries inventions
China has threatened the Spratly Islands (property of the Phillipines)

Shall I go on?


Well I'm finally available to contribute to this thread. In response to Mysteryman's post as quoted above, I may point out to you in one sentence:

go over the chinese history before you start accusing China of invading anyone. As for Tibet, this is still a disputed point - never has it been established that there was an invasion, unless you focus only on western left-wingers, who always ignore the Chinese side of the argument.

I am not familiar with the invasion of SK by China (if there was any) and if weapons and supplies are provided by China to North Vietnam - so what? What do Chinese internal affairs have to do with the Americans? Or is it just another example of the US busy-bodying into Chinese internal affairs AGAIN?

As for constant border fights with Russia, so what? Funny you didn't say Russia has constantly interfered with Chinese territory - eg: Mongolia.

As for Nepal and the Spratly islands - please don't throw around names like you are an expert on territorial and border disputes. Wik provides these are disputes only so that Nepal and the Spratly have not been confirmed to belong to anyone, and until then, if China argues they have a claim they have every right to put forward their side. Might I point out that Chinese are not the only parties in Spratly - Vietnam is another. Why didn't you mention that as well?

Regarding Taiwan, I have pointed out to you there is a thread on A2K which addresses both sides of the argument but you obviously have not given thought to this thread before making your splendid accusation twice that we are threatening Taiwan. The thread is here - READ IT - before you make the accusation.

In regards to our disagreement over the history of Chinese government, I see Wolf_ODonell has given the correct information. Or if you want a shortened and more modern version, which I don't believe your source didn't give, but rather you left out, whether deliberatly operating on selective reading or not:

In 1912 the last Qing Emperor was removed from the throne due to the efforts of Sun Yet Sen and the Republic of China was established in mainland China. In 1928 The Nationalist party (hereinafter referred to as GMD) defeated the Communists and northern warlords to reunite China which at this time included the island of Taiwan.

During the years 1934-1935, Mao lead the Chinese Communists (Hereinafter referred to as the CCP) in the Long March where they regrouped as a stronger force to defeat the GMD, accumulating into a civil war. The Civil War was interuppted two years later by the Japanese invasion into mainland China during World War Two. The CCP and GMD united to fight the common enemy.

1946 shows the defeat, surrendor and withdrawal of Japanese forces from mainland China, and the civil war continued with renewed fighting. The GMD were defeated, there was the establishment of the CCP, the People's Republic of China (PRC). The GMD with some two million followers withdrew to the island of Taiwan and the Republic of China (ROC) was established.


Lesson to be learned by you mysteryman - research on the content of your posts before you post. Half your arguments have been shown to be disputed and unconfirmed and the other half have been outright proven to be wrong.
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:09 pm
Merry Andrew:

I respond to your first post on this thread. Firstly, thank you for your praise about China's developments and your commentary. I would like to point out the following:

- Firstly in regards to your comment that in 30 years time China could have done much more, I observe that America who has been regarded as a steady and strong country for a lot longer than 60 years, has had 40 plus years to clear up their racial problems, particularly in regards to the treatment of African-Americans and equality or the lack of it. Yet up to today in 2005, they still complain of inequality and racial suffering. If America had 40 years of steady government and country history and still has not cleared up racial issues, which is a small problem compared to China's problems, how does one reasonably expect China to clear up their modern problems affecting all the people and the whole country in the space of 30 years when the current government was only established recently? You are asking for the impossible.

- Secondly in regards to your comment about the central government's hold on economic activity requiring relaxation and that Tienemen Square is proof enough of that: I can't say I can see Tiananmen being an example of economic power, more of human rights power. If this is what you meant or had implied, might I point out to you the following:

Offering another perspective regarding the CCP's actions in 1989, the student protestors had almost gotten to the extent of possible overthrow of the government. Had they suceeded (ie: had the government continued to remain inactive) China would have drowned into a state of anarchy. The government, at that critical moment was, very much forced to the extent and the extreme. The very fact that they had allowed the protests to continue for the length it did before resorting to this method indicates how reluctant they were to employ use of force.

I also point out that 1989 was 16 years ago and as you said, China now has changed very much. But why does everyone still point to an event 16years ago, but not any recent examples? For a recent example of their improving attitudes I refer you to their reaction towards the recent protests in Hong Kong, where the people of the HK SAR (special administration region) were protesting against the then chief executive Tung Chee Hwa [whom they had legally voted for themselves, with China's full approval of their right to vote], demanding his resignation. China's government did not "treat these "dissenters"" in any way other than to let them protest, and meanwhile hold talks with HK SAR government for possible solutions and alternatives. Tung eventually stepped down and the Chinese gov welcomed his successor Donald Tsung - the process was peaceful and friendly and there are no longer protests being held
.

Some problems I admit need to be tackled more effectively that the operations now. Corruption is rampant and is highly disapproved of as I see in the end it is the chinese public, the chinese people who suffer the consequnces and as a patriot (not someone brainwashed by the Chinese government as accused of by some) that is the last thing I want to see.

But overall, the CCP has been doing a fantastic job in controlling the country and all I ask is: why do people always misunderstand the government instead of focusing on its work ever since its establishment in 1949?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:14 pm
Point of accuracy, pragmatic: it is not the "Western left-wingers", as you put it, who are unwilling to hear the Chinese side of the argument. The left wing has always been squarely pro-ROC. It is the right wing which vehemently disputes China's right to be in Tibet and to lay any claims whatsoever on Nepal.
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pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:22 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
Point of accuracy, pragmatic: it is not the "Western left-wingers", as you put it, who are unwilling to hear the Chinese side of the argument. The left wing has always been squarely pro-ROC. It is the right wing which vehemently disputes China's right to be in Tibet and to lay any claims whatsoever on Nepal.


In the context of Australia, it is the extreme left wing who dispise the Chinese government (The Greens and their party leader Bob Brown are a perfect spot on example) and the right wing who agree with China - (Coalition and John Howard.)

And Amenesty International is regarded as left wing too, aren't they? China is not their favourite country.
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 10:23 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
The left wing has always been squarely pro-ROC.


Merry Andrew: ROC points to the government of Taiwan, if such a government is recognised as legal, and thus still against the PRC. Was this a typo?
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