War with China?

Only if China threatens the security of the US. How can China become a threat to our security?

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Why? If the economic interests of the US were theatened.

Who would side with whom? China is building up a bunch of client states in the developing world. They'd sign up. Most of the West would be with the US unless it suited their economic interests to ally with China.

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There was a poll done not too long ago, amongst non-european nations as to which world power they had more of a tendancy to lean towards. China beat out the USA, making it onto the top of the list.
When we went to war with Iraq we set a standard that said, "If one country beats up a weaker country, we'll step in and take care of it" China has already threatened Taiwan, bullying their democratic state, and promising nuclear responce should the US intervene.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c8.html, http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2005/07/10/2003262913

And already they have begun a ruthless campain trying to water down and break our ally relations with friendly countries
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151094,00.html

i wouldnt say entirely that China wants to blast us off the map because they hate us, but the threat is still there. China wants to have free rights to spread their communist/scocialist selves onto their smaller neighbors, including, taiwan and korea to mention two. They want the right to do this without someone like us posing a threat to them, so theyre already making their moves to weaken us. I assume to strip us of allies, so that if they were brought to the place of nuclear warfare against us the rest of our allies would not be there to back us up, out of fear of the same responce.

When a large government with such complete control over its peoples remains quiet for so long, growing and strengthening theres only so many out comes. I doubt it involves a tea party with the world leaders.

Look at it like this, for the past 60 years there has been the possiblity of nuclear warfare, and for atleast three generations we have evaded it. How long do we honestly expect to escape the inevetable? If its not us and China its two other countries.

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Great, the future's rosey. I read that the american air and naval power are decades ahead of china's at the moment. I think then it would take decades for a war to break out. But i really think only a madman would use nukes. there are no winners in such a war, both countries get destroyed and what with the star wars defence system america should be able to take a threat of nuclear war in future and still come out on top. I would have thought most people would side with the west, cos although an american superpower has its problems, i prefer it much more than a chinese one.

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Great, the future's rosey. I read that the american air and naval power are decades ahead of china's at the moment. I think then it would take decades for a war to break out. But i really think only a madman would use nukes. there are no winners in such a war, both countries get destroyed and what with the star wars defence system america should be able to take a threat of nuclear war in future and still come out on top. I would have thought most people would side with the west, cos although an american superpower has its problems, i prefer it much more than a chinese one.

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I was shocked at the findings in the poll. a direct attack no, i dont think anyone can get through to american soil in that way. But look at how the terrorists crippled NYC, and they werent even an entire country, just a group of a few thousand people.

I still think nuclear war on some level is sure to happen at some point. there are enough generation gaps between us and our grandfathers who dropped the bombs in japan.

plus, if nuclear warfare promises nothing but distruction and no one wins, then why does every country have nukes at the ready. You dont build a bomb unless you intend at some point to use it.

At some point the beast grows confident and content. at some point something is over looked and a gaurd is left down. that is what simply cannot be stopped. human error vs human ego.

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Yeah i was shocked at the polls too. But its because americas dirty laundry is well known to the world, whereas china's dirty deeds are hardly ever publicised to the same level. The reason peopel prefer china is just out of ignorance, they dont know how much worse it would be. They have massive human rights violations in their own country, and people have such limits on freedom its ridiculous. I mean, they dont even allow elections there for governments! I used to like china alot too, then i read about tibet, and taiwan, and saw china's behaviour with these japan protests and now i changed my mind.
Nukes, i think, are made because people know they are a gaurantee against outside invasion kind of. They give you leverage. North korea is willing to give up its nukes if it gets the right concessions in return, so they are using them for leverage. I think thats why we have them, but also they are there to be used as a last resort i think. i think its possible that the weapons are so destructuve and cause so much loss that no one will ever use them. They know that when they launch, the enemy launches too. Thats what i think anyway, but i suppose there could one day be an ultra stupid, ultra psychotic leader of some country.

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bookmark

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Konstansis wrote:

The reason peopel prefer china is just out of ignorance, they dont know how much worse it would be.

I can assure you that if China became a superpower, we would not attack every single country on earth whether we had connections with them or not because we wanted to "liberate the people" <of their oil.> China is not a violent country - we only take back what we own. Look at chinese history - its always been western powers (and in the case of Japan - our own asian neighbours) invading us.

Konstansis wrote:

They have massive human rights violations in their own country, and people have such limits on freedom its ridiculous. I mean, they dont even allow elections there for governments!

You forget that we only became a true country with a steady government only 60 plus years ago <not to mention that we were ravaged by wars and invasions - the Japanese invasion in WWII put us back 30 years> - with a country that constitutes 1/3 of the population of the world, and so many different cultures and languages and styles of living 60 plus years is not enough for China to modernise and give the people everything they want, or else it will result in chaos.

China needs time to improve and believe me, compared to 30 years ago the chinese government has already made big improvements. 30 years ago they would not have allowed Chinese people to leave the country - now tourism both in and out of China by Chinese and other people alike is booming and only growing.

I can understand your anger at the Chinese government's restrictions - you are not the first I have talked to who have held such views. I only attempt to explain to you why we are what we are today.

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Pragmatic, your defensive stance does you credit. I would suggest, however, that the fact that China has a dismal record of human rights violations and similar restrictions on freedom is irrelevant to the fact that "we only became a true country with a steady government only 60 plus years ago." The problem lies with the kind of country that it became under the leadership of the madman Mao Zedong, one of the greatest mass murderers of all time. That it is taking so long since Mao's death to improve matters even marginally says a great deal about the ambitions of those who have stayed in power.

It's not about Communism, a working economic theory which has been universally discredited and shown as unworkable. China was smart enough to start veering away from a strict Communist regime long before the collapse of the former Societ Union, the birthplace of modern-day Communism. China's leaders recognized that in order to compete in a world-wide market, Marxist-Leninist theory and tactics would be to no avail. That is all to the country's good. However, the political strictures against personal freedoms were not relaxed along with a relaxation of the central government's hold on all economic activity. Tienemen Square is proof enough of that.

I think it is laudable that "compared to 30 years ago the Chinese government has already made big improvements." And I don't doubt or dispute that one bit. I do think, however, that in 30 years' time much, much more could have been done. And much, much more needs to be done before anyone in the Western world will trust this Asian giant.

Right now the West needs China to keep the lunatic at the helm of North Korea in check. And here China has done an admirable job of helping to calm the waters, forestalling a need for a US invasion. How long this can and will continue is another matter.

Respectfully,

Merry (but not always) Andrew

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pragmatic wrote:

Konstansis wrote:
The reason peopel prefer china is just out of ignorance, they dont know how much worse it would be.

Quote:
I can assure you that if China became a superpower, we would not attack every single country on earth whether we had connections with them or not because we wanted to "liberate the people" <of their oil.> China is not a violent country - we only take back what we own. Look at chinese history - its always been western powers (and in the case of Japan - our own asian neighbours) invading us.

Konstansis wrote:
They have massive human rights violations in their own country, and people have such limits on freedom its ridiculous. I mean, they dont even allow elections there for governments!

You fail to mention Tibet,which was an independent country before invaded and occupied by China in 1950.
You also fail to mention the Chinese invasion of North Korea,AFTER they N Koreans invaded South Korea and were repulsed by the US.
China invaded N Korea as an ally of NK,and almost succeeded in defeating the UN forces.

Then there was the 1910 invasion of Tibet by China,and the 1788 invasion of Nepal by Chinese forces.

Quote:
You forget that we only became a true country with a steady government only 60 plus years ago <not to mention that we were ravaged by wars and invasions - the Japanese invasion in WWII put us back 30 years> - with a country that constitutes 1/3 of the population of the world, and so many different cultures and languages and styles of living 60 plus years is not enough for China to modernise and give the people everything they want, or else it will result in chaos
.

Oh really???
Then what about this from wikepedia...
"With one of the world's longest periods of uninterrupted civilization and the world's longest continuously used written language system, China's history has been largely characterized by repeated divisions and reunifications amid alternating periods of peace and war, and violent imperial dynastic change. The country's territorial extent expanded outwards from a core area in the North China Plain, and varied according to its moving fortunes to include multiple regions of East, Northeast, and Central Asia. For centuries, Imperial China was also one of the world's most technologically advanced civilizations, and East Asia's dominant cultural influence, with an impact lasting to the present day throughout the region."

That doesnt jibe with what you are claiming.

Quote:
China needs time to improve and believe me, compared to 30 years ago the chinese government has already made big improvements. 30 years ago they would not have allowed Chinese people to leave the country - now tourism both in and out of China by Chinese and other people alike is booming and only growing.

I can understand your anger at the Chinese government's restrictions - you are not the first I have talked to who have held such views. I only attempt to explain to you why we are what we are today.

So you are attempting to justify what happened at Tieneman Square?
Are you saying that the Chinese govt was right to murder those people?
Is that part of what the Chinese govt is today?

Or the attempts at "population control" by limiting the amount of children couples can have?
Is that a justifiable part of what China is today?

I have been to China,and find it a "30 yard" country.
Most of China looks beautiful from 30 yards away,but when you get closer,you can see the ugly side of the country and its govt.
There are many parts of China that are beautiful,but the repressive policies and the brutality of its govt mar the beauty of the people and the country itself.

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mysteryman wrote:

"With one of the world's longest periods of uninterrupted civilization and the world's longest continuously used written language system, China's history has been largely characterized by repeated divisions and reunifications amid alternating periods of peace and war, and violent imperial dynastic change. The country's territorial extent expanded outwards from a core area in the North China Plain, and varied according to its moving fortunes to include multiple regions of East, Northeast, and Central Asia. For centuries, Imperial China was also one of the world's most technologically advanced civilizations, and East Asia's dominant cultural influence, with an impact lasting to the present day throughout the region."

That doesnt jibe with what you are claiming.

How not? Everything said in this phrase you quoted is accurate and it doesn't affect what I have said. Please point out the inconsistencies.

mysteryman wrote:

So you are attempting to justify what happened at Tieneman Square?
Are you saying that the Chinese govt was right to murder those people?
Is that part of what the Chinese govt is today?

again I have talked about this issue in another thread: here

mysteryman wrote:

Or the attempts at "population control" by limiting the amount of children couples can have?

I don't see what is wrong with population control. Experts say that China will not have enough food to feed themselves if no measures are being taken.

As a side on point, I understand many people are against the issue of China's one child policy because it results in parents discarding baby girls in favour of a son. The one child policy did not result in this - culture and belief did. If the one child policy were to be abolished, I am willing to bet that many families would still discard baby girls - the only difference is that they will have more than one son.

I have also addressed this issue here

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Pragmatic,
Why did you ignore the part about chinese military history?
You said...
" China is not a violent country - we only take back what we own. Look at chinese history - its always been western powers (and in the case of Japan - our own asian neighbours) invading us."

I have shown you several examples where that is not true,and you avoided it.
Why?

You also said
"How not? Everything said in this phrase you quoted is accurate and it doesn't affect what I have said. Please point out the inconsistencies."

I was pointing out that China became a country with a steady govt only 60 tears ago.
The evidence belies that.
China has had a steady govt for a lot longer then 60 years.

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bookmark - mysteryman I will get back to you after mid-November.

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On the topic of the Japanese, they lie. The whole race lies. Those people working in Japan work for an average of 60 hours a week, and yet they claim not to be stressed at all. How can any human being claim such a ridiculous statement to be true?

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James - the Japanese gave the world the world meaning death from overwork. But that doesn't validate your claims.

I can say Australians are idiots because they have continually voted for a government which is going to destroy workers rights and which has engineered a working environment where we work, on average, the second longest number of hours in all the countries of all those listed in the OECD.

I would be right about one fact (second longest hours of work) but I would be wrong in calling all Australians idiots.

Just because I think it's so doesn't make it so.

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There probably will be conflict of some sort between the US and China. I dont know how serious it will be, but China will win thats for certain. Empires come and go, Britain ruled the waves in the 19th century, then America dominated the 20th century. The 21st century belongs to China.

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maybe

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Read David Wingate's Chung Kuo series for a speculative take on this question.

Some very good points advanced thus far.

The US military is far beyond China's capabilities, and unless we kill the Pentagon and its budget, China is not about to overtake us.

Chinas has all of the ills (and then some) that America's critics predict will knock it off its thrown:

Environmental degradation
Militarism
Constrained personal liberties
Governmental corruption
Excessive energy consumption
Wide gaps between the Haves and Have Nots

For some reason, the conventional wisdom is that China should have no problem overcoming these problems, while the US will certainly succumb to them.

Remember the handwringing over Japan's dominance of the world economy?

The big plus for China. The Chinese.

You know it must have been a God awful place if the genetically inclined Chinese capitalists opted for Communism.

But now they are reverting to form.

If the totalitarian government holds on to power for the next 20 or so years, we (old Americans) have nothing to worry about. The US will likely retain its supremacy for the balance of our life times.

There is but one way China will reign supreme -It combines capitalism with democracy. Do that and look out world. But, then it won't be such a bad thing if they follow the model of the US. Might be nice to retire from the world's policeman. Let the Chinese fight the Muslims, while we enjoy our vast riches as 2nd best.

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