5
   

Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

 
 
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2022 03:51 pm
Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.

If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?

Regards
DL
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2022 07:24 pm
@Greatest I am,
Does anybody really care. G^D created and creates all of us. We each deal with and are dealt with by Him in love.

He also claimed responsibility for judgement of all of us solely for himself. If you know something is wrong you are required to keep yourself from doing it. We are responsible for our own use of our G*D given free agency.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2022 10:46 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?


I think you omitted something.

"If God condemns gays, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?"

First off, it should be amended further.

"If God is said to condemn gays, as some believers think, then why is God creating gays?"

Yet all the secular smear all Christians with the same brush, no? Or shall we say not all atheists accuse Christians?

Now, on to the question.
1. Gays are not made by nature. There is no gay DNA (sorry). But God does indeed create us, warts and all, before we are born.
2. Nor are they made by nurture. You cannot raise a gay child.
3. Being gay is a choice, and yes it is a sin.

You've already tuned me out. Lemme clarify.

The passage widely cited as "condemning" gays say this.
Quote:
6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.


First off, be aware of the context. 1 Corinthians 6:9 is widely the passage focused on. Yet you will quickly notice that the context completely messes with this interpretation. First, the passage is about lawsuits. In other words, don't be a busybody looking for reasons to harass your Christian brothers (rules out the shunning of gays right away). Second, if we go by this model, then rather than simply going to somewhere and saying, "My name is Autumn and I am a lesbian," we instead are banned for life from the church. No. That isn't a realistic model. Third, we are told Christ died for our sins, so whatever. Then we are told not everything is good for us. Yeah, you can be gay, and get an STD cuz you were not careful. This is not "God's wrath". It just is a sucky event.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2022 08:10 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Quote:
If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?


I think you omitted something.

"If God condemns gays, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?"

First off, it should be amended further.

"If God is said to condemn gays, as some believers think, then why is God creating gays?"

Yet all the secular smear all Christians with the same brush, no? Or shall we say not all atheists accuse Christians?

Now, on to the question.
1. Gays are not made by nature. There is no gay DNA (sorry). But God does indeed create us, warts and all, before we are born.
2. Nor are they made by nurture. You cannot raise a gay child.
3. Being gay is a choice, and yes it is a sin.

You've already tuned me out. Lemme clarify.

The passage widely cited as "condemning" gays say this.
Quote:
6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.


First off, be aware of the context. 1 Corinthians 6:9 is widely the passage focused on. Yet you will quickly notice that the context completely messes with this interpretation. First, the passage is about lawsuits. In other words, don't be a busybody looking for reasons to harass your Christian brothers (rules out the shunning of gays right away). Second, if we go by this model, then rather than simply going to somewhere and saying, "My name is Autumn and I am a lesbian," we instead are banned for life from the church. No. That isn't a realistic model. Third, we are told Christ died for our sins, so whatever. Then we are told not everything is good for us. Yeah, you can be gay, and get an STD cuz you were not careful. This is not "God's wrath". It just is a sucky event.



Here is a quote from the god that Jesus worshiped:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives."


Leviticus 20:13

There is that!
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2022 08:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
Old Testament. New Testament. Or have you noticed a bunch of Christians avoiding pork? No? Then there might be somewhat different rules.

The New Testament rules are less about respecting manmade traditions (though even Jewish lands now disobey the tradition) and more about respecting God. That is, God is more appalled at people denying it is a sin and denying God exists, than getting on their knees and saying...

Jeremi: God, I know I have sinned. It's just that when David (pronounced "Dah-vid") licks my ass, I get so weak. And I haven't felt that way with any woman ever.
God: I understand, but it seems a shame to damage your ass this way. Are you sure that I couldn't make you meet a woman so much like a man that it would please you?
Jeremi: Nah God, it just feels so good when he comes inside me.
God: Alright then. Be sure you kids both wear protection. Don't want you coming down with anything.

Now maybe that's not exactly what God says, but it's alot diff from OT God. I'm sure that too soft even for God, but...
As I understand it, God is more upset by the abuse of body, the destruction of relationship with Him, and the not talking in prayer, than about the gay-ass sex. Or is it gay ass-sex?
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2022 08:43 am
@Greatest I am,
Why do YOU get to sit in Judgement of others? Isn't that God's job? Are you saying you're more powerful than God?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2022 09:27 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Old Testament. New Testament. Or have you noticed a bunch of Christians avoiding pork? No? Then there might be somewhat different rules.

The New Testament rules are less about respecting manmade traditions (though even Jewish lands now disobey the tradition) and more about respecting God. That is, God is more appalled at people denying it is a sin and denying God exists, than getting on their knees and saying...

Jeremi: God, I know I have sinned. It's just that when David (pronounced "Dah-vid") licks my ass, I get so weak. And I haven't felt that way with any woman ever.
God: I understand, but it seems a shame to damage your ass this way. Are you sure that I couldn't make you meet a woman so much like a man that it would please you?
Jeremi: Nah God, it just feels so good when he comes inside me.
God: Alright then. Be sure you kids both wear protection. Don't want you coming down with anything.

Now maybe that's not exactly what God says, but it's alot diff from OT God. I'm sure that too soft even for God, but...
As I understand it, God is more upset by the abuse of body, the destruction of relationship with Him, and the not talking in prayer, than about the gay-ass sex. Or is it gay ass-sex?


The quote I offered earlier is from THE LAW.

Here is another quote (This one from the New Testament):

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

So are you arguing that both Heaven and Earth have passed away...or that Jesus is a liar?

bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2022 08:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
Somehow or other, Christianity no longer requires people to avoid pork.

Nor are Christians required to be circumcised (though I was).

Nor does the church seem to care that I wear the clothing of women.

According to church teachings, the way this is able to happen is that Jesus fulfilled the law by being a perfect sacrifice. This, despite him not following the Sabbath and many other things. The law is not abolished (you can still go and eat kosher food if you want), but it is now secondary to Jesus.

Or more precisely, the law is still there, but it doesn't matter as much, because (1) all of us failed to live up to it as evidenced by you wearing blended fabrics today in direct disobedience to the kosher mandate to have clothing only of one type, and (2) the law is intended for us to fail at it, so we trust Jesus instead.

You can find this exact rationale by reading the Letters in the NT.
https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/the-purpose-of-the-law/
So yeah, if you wanna have gay sex, remember to have safe sex so you don't get STDs. You'll not find any major objection here.

It is kinda important to understand that this world is passing away, but I wouldn't expect you to care. Go to town, as they say. Have all the sex you want. When sex feels empty, when life feels empty, I will tell you there's something more to life. You probably won't accept it, but it's there if you do.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2022 09:10 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Somehow or other, Christianity no longer requires people to avoid pork.

Nor are Christians required to be circumcised (though I was).

Nor does the church seem to care that I wear the clothing of women.

According to church teachings, the way this is able to happen is that Jesus fulfilled the law by being a perfect sacrifice. This, despite him not following the Sabbath and many other things. The law is not abolished (you can still go and eat kosher food if you want), but it is now secondary to Jesus.

Or more precisely, the law is still there, but it doesn't matter as much, because (1) all of us failed to live up to it as evidenced by you wearing blended fabrics today in direct disobedience to the kosher mandate to have clothing only of one type, and (2) the law is intended for us to fail at it, so we trust Jesus instead.

You can find this exact rationale by reading the Letters in the NT.
https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/the-purpose-of-the-law/
So yeah, if you wanna have gay sex, remember to have safe sex so you don't get STDs. You'll not find any major objection here.

It is kinda important to understand that this world is passing away, but I wouldn't expect you to care. Go to town, as they say. Have all the sex you want. When sex feels empty, when life feels empty, I will tell you there's something more to life. You probably won't accept it, but it's there if you do.


You cited a passage as THE homosexual comment...and I pointed out a different one. You said that no longer applied...and I pointed out that Jesus said it did. I asked you if you were saying that Heaven and Earth have both passed away...or that Jesus was lying.

Now you have responded with a lot of words that do not actually reply to the question.

Give it another try.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2022 09:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Reread what I said, since you apparently aren't good at reading.

By your own quote Jesus did not abolish the law, only fulfill it.

Because the law is fulfilled, you will not be cursed for breaking the law (gay sex - OT, against the law). God will no longer condemn his people for breaking his laws. However, the law is still in existence. There are natural consequences for breaking the law.

Whatdo I mean by natural consequences? Well, let's assume there is no punishment for killing someone. And you murder your best friend. Suppose your best friend routinely helps you because you are unable to hold a job thanks to psychotic personality disorder, by bringing you baskets of food. Without any legal or moral system, no friend equals no food baskets.

Now that's pretty sick way of looking at things, but I made my point. Even if Jesus forgives our sins, they still exist as a breaking of the law.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2022 09:46 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Reread what I said, since you apparently aren't good at reading.


I am a LOT better at reading...than you are at writing. You ramble...and dissemble.

Quote:
By your own quote Jesus did not abolish the law, only fulfill it.


What Jesus is quoted as saying is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

According to Jesus, unless Heaven and Earth have both passed away...THE LAW STANDS EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.

So the question you are dodging (and not doing a decent job of it)...also stands.

Are you saying that Heaven and Earth have both passed...or are you saying that Jesus was a liar?

Answer the question...and stop with the bullshit, because it is not selling here in A2K.


Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2022 11:56 am
My two bits on the subject.

I think the key to understanding 'it' is to realize that the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is not an isolated subject unto itself. It is a subcategory of the sin in question. That is the sin of inappropriate sex. Inappropriate heterosexual sex is condemned at least as often as homosexual sex.

It all falls under whatever the meaning of 'adultery/fornication' really is.
I don’t think either side of the 'gay' debate knows.
Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2022 01:25 pm
@Greatest I am,
In my modest opinion certain mutations of the population fill a role on the Human ecosystem/society...I think natural selection has pushed a fair amount of these mutations as they proved functional when there was a collapse of mainstream social ecosystems, like for instance when a to big amount of women dies in a tribe and you have to keep civil unrest at bay like you do in prison populations.

I am not sure about any of this but this is my own personal conjecture on the topic. I firmly believe every kind of human has a function in the social ecosystem, we just know to little on Evolutionary Sociology for now.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2022 02:21 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What Jesus is quoted as saying is:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."


Here's what I mean about not reading correctly.

You have placed emphasis on the wrong part.

"DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. I HAVE COME, NOT TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFILL THEM. Of this much I assure you: until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter, shall be done away with until it all come true."

The Law still exists, as do some of its penalties. However, God (through Jesus) has taken the sting out of the Law, but living up to it, and taking the penalty.

This is the "scandal to the Jews, and folly to the Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 1:23), that Jesus died on the cross. To Jews, it is a scandal, because they are told that God chose THEM. How dare God choose these Christian heretics. To Gentiles, it is folly. This Jesus guy died for me? Ridiculous.

Here's something that will seemingly have nothing to do with what I've been talking about, but I'll talk about it anyway, to see if you can get what I'm saying.
Today, we were building a 3D wooden model (basically, a puzzle). At one point, I had a clockwork gear. The way the instructions explained it, the wooden shaft was supposed to go in a hole, then on the other side a washer, a gear, and another washer went on. Against my dad's protests, I put one of the washers on the other side. I just didn't like how the shaft seemed to slip, so I used the washer to protect the other side. It didn't line up quite right with the other cogs, however, I kept it there. It turned out that the adjoining gears were too high if assembled as originally planned according to instructions. However, the instructions for the other cogs involved a metal rod, rubber washer, another rubber washer, wooden washer, gear, and another wooden washer. I discovered that the top didn't really stay on, so I moved the second rubber washer to the top. These gears now all clicked just fine. Right, wrong, the important thing here was to be consistent. Maybe long term, the way I put it together will be an issue, but that's later.

In the same way, maybe in the end God will judge the gays. Maybe he'll judge those who judge the gays. Or people who don't have a strong opinion either way. But for now, we don't make that kind of judgement call. As long as the gears turn, it's all good.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2022 07:11 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Quote:
What Jesus is quoted as saying is:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."


Here's what I mean about not reading correctly.

You have placed emphasis on the wrong part.

"DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. I HAVE COME, NOT TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFILL THEM. Of this much I assure you: until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter, shall be done away with until it all come true."

The Law still exists, as do some of its penalties. However, God (through Jesus) has taken the sting out of the Law, but living up to it, and taking the penalty.

This is the "scandal to the Jews, and folly to the Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 1:23), that Jesus died on the cross. To Jews, it is a scandal, because they are told that God chose THEM. How dare God choose these Christian heretics. To Gentiles, it is folly. This Jesus guy died for me? Ridiculous.

Here's something that will seemingly have nothing to do with what I've been talking about, but I'll talk about it anyway, to see if you can get what I'm saying.
Today, we were building a 3D wooden model (basically, a puzzle). At one point, I had a clockwork gear. The way the instructions explained it, the wooden shaft was supposed to go in a hole, then on the other side a washer, a gear, and another washer went on. Against my dad's protests, I put one of the washers on the other side. I just didn't like how the shaft seemed to slip, so I used the washer to protect the other side. It didn't line up quite right with the other cogs, however, I kept it there. It turned out that the adjoining gears were too high if assembled as originally planned according to instructions. However, the instructions for the other cogs involved a metal rod, rubber washer, another rubber washer, wooden washer, gear, and another wooden washer. I discovered that the top didn't really stay on, so I moved the second rubber washer to the top. These gears now all clicked just fine. Right, wrong, the important thing here was to be consistent. Maybe long term, the way I put it together will be an issue, but that's later.

In the same way, maybe in the end God will judge the gays. Maybe he'll judge those who judge the gays. Or people who don't have a strong opinion either way. But for now, we don't make that kind of judgement call. As long as the gears turn, it's all good.



Okay...so you are saying that Jesus was a liar.

No problemo.
bulmabriefs144
 
  0  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2022 08:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
I'm saying that he told the truth.

If he is a liar, then he did not fulfull the law. If the law is not fulfilled, then we have to live by every part of the letter. Every expectation has to be carried out. That means, if you are told to do a math problem, you can't just block the poster and walk away. You have to solve the math problem.

But if the law is fulfilled, then even though it still exists, we are set free from it. We are no longer slaves of the law.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2022 08:45 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


I'm saying that he told the truth.


If, as you say, he told the truth...then NOT A WORD, NOT A LETTER, NOT A PART OF A LETTER OF THE LAW...has changed.

Here, again, is part of that LAW:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives."

Leviticus 20:13

Now, if you want to "worship" a god who feels that way...you are free to do so. But Loki, Zeus, Vulcan, Ra were all more worthy of "worship."

I do not care what you are, Bulma. You apparently are either a drag queen, queer, or trans candidate (you are all over the place when you describe yourself)...but you are free to be that without any bullshit from some moronic god. You are worthy of respect regardless of your sexual orientation.

But stop trying to pretend your religion is something other than what it is. You become laughable because of that...not because of "what you are.""


Quote:

If he is a liar, then he did not fulfull the law. If the law is not fulfilled, then we have to live by every part of the letter. Every expectation has to be carried out. That means, if you are told to do a math problem, you can't just block the poster and walk away. You have to solve the math problem.

But if the law is fulfilled, then even though it still exists, we are set free from it. We are no longer slaves of the law.


Read my last paragraph again!
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2022 11:00 am
@Leadfoot,
There's also abusive sex. Such as flaying or whipping your partner with weapons, or other sorts of sadism.
https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/shutterstock_381393499-2.jpg
The one mention of homosexuality in the Bible outside the depiction of law is when two angels come to visit Lot, and the townsfolk bang on the door, and demand to have sex with them. Rape and abuse are at least as bad as infidelity or homosexuality.

(That said, BDSM is not abuse. But it can occasionally cross that line)
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2022 11:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
For a secular person who is supposed to be free from everything because they don't have a stance on things, you seem to be awfully legalistic. Just saying...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2022 06:04 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
IMO, Rape, 'sex abuse' (of adults), etc, are not primarily 'sexual crimes'; they are in the category of aggravated hate crimes of violence and not related to what the Bible means by adultery/fornication.
 

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