What I like about my fellow A2K-ers...

Let's start here Mame. What do you think about Izzy's behavior in this post. He is doing exactly what we are talking about. He seems to be on this "White Supremacist" kick even though it has nothing to do with this thread (at least the "poor me beatfest" jab is on topic).

Can you condemn this behavior (in spite of the fact that Izzy is on your "side")?

You do realize you are nasty first then whine and complain when you get the same treatment back. The "ideological lens" trade mark you've got going is tiresome and lacking of any good judgement. It's been pointed out to you several time but to no avail, you keep on attacking.

No one can stop a poster from having their own belief system. I'm not sure why you continue to cram YOUR beliefs down my throat, expecting ME to change.

No.

Just no.

Look, two two don't get along. I don't agree with everything either of you say and wouldn't say much of it, in fact. This is personal between you two and has nothing to do with any supposed insular group. You can't charge him with something you're guilty of doing yourself. You know what they say, 'if the shoe fits'.

What some here oppose is that you're pushing an agenda and then judging them critically when they disagree or offer proof to the contrary. You seem to be the only one who can't let others have their beliefs without ridicule.

And I know for a certainty that you will argue this. You look at us through one lens and yourself through another.

You're also the only one here who sees posters here as belonging to an insular group. I don't even know what that means. Like everywhere else, some get along, some agree, some agree to differ, some don't like others.

But most don't have that snide, condescending, mocking, judging tone.

What I have done, Neptune, is dared to disagree with you.

I expressed my opinions and defended them. And where I thought your arguments were weak, I pushed on them to find the holes. I don't believe I have ever thrown the first personal jab at you (although I have thrown some back).

You make things personal quickly, and you hold a grudge. You did the Izzy thing for a while, jumping into a thread to make a nasty personal attack without even addressing the topic at hand.

The "ideological narrative" (rather than "lens") is a valid criticism. It is a criticism of behavior rather than a personal attack, and it is an important comment on how the culture works.

I don't know what you mean by "cram". I am expressing and defending my opinions. That is all I can do. This seems to bother you.

I really don't like being called out by name, for whatever reason.

You started **** with me.

Own it.

You actually have NO VALID criticism. so knock it off.

Mame, I don't think you are as blatantly nasty as Izzy and Neptune. But you are part of the problem. You are definitely part of the dynamic that applauds and support nastiness as long as it is directed at the right people.

That is why I take this thread personally. If Linkat had started this thread, I would not have reacted the same.

I don't criticize your nasty behaviour, either, unless it's directed towards me. I don't talk with Neptune - I haven't noticed her talking to anyone, actually. So is she part of this insular group? GB is not on here much, so there's not a lot of conversation there, either. I also think you define 'nasty' differently than others. It's your TONE people object to and the fact that you can't let others have their own beliefs without ridicule from you. Nobody has to prove or explain anything to anyone else, including you.



See above.



When have I ever done this? If you're going to accuse me of something, you'd better have proof! I generally stay out of it when it's between 2 people.



What is this conforming business? Give me an example. I've asked you this before and you still haven't produced anything?

And how do you know that posters don't pm someone who's been disagreeable? You don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

It's amusing to me that you think I'm "defending" anyone – my sole intent was to correct your mistaken impression that the post was about Mexico! I've also noticed that your diction is occasionally imprecise, that you'll misinterpret a point, or fail to detect a nuance; that's often the only reason I'm replying to you at all.

When I rediscovered A2K five years ago there were some pretty toxic members and a lot of really stupid Hillary memes were being posted. And I remember being disappointed with Finn because he was the "thoughtful conservative" and I thought he should've denounced some of the garbage that was being posted by people like Gungasnake . Then I realized how stupid that was. I was looking at the threads, putting people into categories, assigning them to ideological camps, and expecting them to act out roles. I was seeing it as a f-ing drama.

It isn't.

It's just people saying stuff. Sometimes insightful, sometimes dumb, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, sometimes funny, sometimes off-the-wall. It's a big bubbling stew, not an elaborately prepared fifteen course meal. I think you are imposing a particular form on A2K and assuming that everyone else sees this place the same way.

There's a Science Fiction Comedy show called Red Dwarf.

Max is like the character Lister, an unpopular control freak who spends all day complaining about how life is so unfair.

The problem on A2K is Max, he causes most of the arguments, nastiness and is the reason so many people are reluctant to post.

He said himself that had Roger started this thread he would most probably have ignored it, but because it was Mame he just had to pounce.

They have never spoken to me the way you have. I will call out anyone who speaks to me in the tones you use. No one deserves such putdowns.

And I don't interfere in other peoples' squabbles. None of my business. I may agree or disagree but no one will ever know.

That is true... and kind of the point.



This is not true. You do the piling on thing, where someone in your group is attacking someone and you join in.

The point is I don't get involved in other people's arguments. I may add a comment about someone (like you, for example), but even that is rare.

And the point is they do not mock, ridicule or condescend to me. You do. Hence the difference.

When you make a comment about someone on a thread that aren't involved in, you are getting involved in other people's arguments. At the point where you start mocking someone or condescending to someone... you become part of the problem.

It is not just you, but there is a habit of "piling on" here, where one person starts a personal attack and other people jump on top of them.

Mame, I consider you to be part of this problem. There are some people who engage with me constructively. There are other people who choose not to engage. Both of these are reasonable ways forward. And, I don't have these nasty arguments with them.

Well, it was a nice try Mame, but Happy New Years to you and yours.

Let's talk about what Izzy is doing. Because this is a big part of the problem. Izzy is the best example, but he isn't the only person.... this is a pattern here.

I questioned whether Kyle Rittenhouse was guilty of Murder. This is not a particularly extreme position, there are lots of people (and 12 jurors) who agreed with me. That labeled me a "White Supremacist". At this point nothing else matters (not even whether this makes any sense in the first place).

Then any other opinion I have on any topic from economics, to human rights, to covid vaccines is now a "White Supremacist". Effectively that label in multiple threads including this one.

I also stated pretty firmly that I believe that the Arbery murder was a murder and that there was no way the murderers should be anywhere but jail. Since Izzy already decided that I am a White Supremacist, and he agreed with me on the Arbery case... he had to state I am a liar.

Izzy is honest at least. He will tell you directly that it is the position that I am taking that is the problem. Anyone who believes the opinion I express is a bigot, a misogynist and a milk drinker. And Izzy is supported and lauded for this (and I do appreciate his honestly.... that he is attacking an opinion is supposed to be the quiet part).

This behavior is loved here, cheered and emulated. That is why this place gets so nasty and reasonable discussion between people with different viewpoints is so difficult.

If people are really "responding to bad behavior" rather than political ideology, then start with Izzy. I am only one person, and I take responsibility for my own actions... but people here are getting the community they want.

Yep... like spitting in the wind. You have yourselves a lovely NYE and let's hope 2022 is better than the last two.

We are not celebrating Festivus, so it might be good if you quit reciting your boat load of grievances. You are perfectly free to start your own thread of how many members you think should be removed so you can be happy. This was supposed to be a Happy New Year thread. I knew Mame was going to get a crap load of attitude from somebody, I just didn't know who would do it.

Mame didn't single out anyone for criticism, she just made positive remarks about a number of posters. I don't know about you, but I don't remember everyones name. Some people only post on certain threads, so it's possible other names would have come up when she remembered. But you decided this had to be about you, once again, it has to be about you.

Anyway, have a Happy Damn New Year and maybe soak your head until the swelling goes down.

To quote you, Nonsense, Max! You don't take responsibility for your actions at all. You have not even bothered to address the many things I've pointed out to you the many times I've made the effort. You still aren't, even in this thread, which is supposed to be about what we like about fellow A2K-ers.

People don't mind disagreeing with one another at all. In fact, through argument and debate, I learn and am sometimes swayed. However, a disparaging, critical tone is a red flag to many. We can like lots of people we disagree with but criticism, especially so freely handed out and often unwarranted, gets people's backs up. What is it about that clear message that you can't or won't address?

The problem is not the community; it's you. You just stand there defending the indefensible, brazening it out, offending others, and making yourself more unlikeable. Give yourself a New Year's gift and try to listen to what people are saying to you. I'm sure you are likeable when you are not judging others and allowing them their own POVs. It'd be nice to see that max.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.