RENDER UNTO CAESAR

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Jesus commanded the paying of taxes at Matthew 22:19-21: "Show me the head tax coin." They brought him a de·nar´i·us. 20 And he said to them: "Whose image and inscription is this?" 21 They said: "Caesar's." Then he said to them: "Pay back, therefore, Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God."

Paul told Christians to obey the law at Romans 13: 1,2: "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves"

Peter told the sanhedrin a Christian's obedience to law must be relative at Acts 5:29 "In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men."

So, to answer your question:
Pay taxes.
Obey the law.
Where the government's laws conflict with God's laws, obey God's laws.

Sort of rules out civil disobedience (or worse) as a Christian option.

Hope that helps for a start.

Well, mebbe . . . mebbe not . . .

You state that where the government's laws conflict with God's laws, obey God's laws. However, you then assert that this sort of rules out civil disobedience or worse as a Christian option. What then is the option, in your view, for a Christian confronted by such a conflict of the Caesar and God?

Setanta, ya've picked one of the stickiest issues in a believer's life. :wink: It parallels Jesus' injunction to be "in the world, yet not of it."

Neo has already quoted the most relevant verses, so I don't need to reiterate those. As for when we hit a conflict, above all the watchword is: if possible avoid injury or bloodshed, especially of innocent people. Bombing abortion clinics, for example, is a no-no (tho I totally sympathize with the motivations of the folks who do it; they see the a.c.'s as modern-day equivalents of the Nazi c.c's). Passive resistance (a la the Ten Booms' work in the Dutch Resistance) would be more in keeping with God's will.

But even then (as the Ten Booms experienced), we might eventually be imprisoned or tortured or executed. This is not unwonted: HEBREWS chptr. 11:35 (referring to centuries in the past) tells us

Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and scourging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated [sounds like the folks in Sudan]---of whom the world was not worthy--wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Only a few verses later, in the next chapter, we read

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Again, at the end of ROMANS 8, it says

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, " For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered ."....For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In 2 TIMOTHY 3:12, it states plainly that Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted

It cannot be otherwise, bec. "the world" (meaning the society of fallen man) pursues what I call the 5 Pernicious P's (Power, Profit, Prestige, Pleasure [of the hedonistic kind-----aesceticism is not biblical], Possessions). Regardless of what age in history we're talking about, the world system's drive is toward those goals, and invariably, the believer will "stand in the way" of the juggernaut, ending up as a persona non grata. The further a society moves from the Judaeo-Christian ethos, the more likely it becomes that Christians will face bloody persecution. By no means a pleasant prospect, it is nonetheless one the Christian has to reckon with.

[Footnote: Neo and I might diverge on the details of this particular issue, bec. if I am not mistaken, he is a J.W.; I am not.]

First of all, Neo, are you a J.W.? I am very curious about this. There is a lot I want to know about that religion.

I agree with Di on the obey man's laws and if they conflict with God's then you obey God's laws.

I am a strong believer in standing up for what I believe in. And there are things that I would go to my grave believing and upholding.

This is such a good topic.

I do happen to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I fear my posts may not always represent the views of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, so I don't wave the banner.

We do well to remember the Beroeans who reportedly "were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11) Therefore, I say read with discernment.

I have no objections to answering questions online but the only way to find out what JWs actually believe is to read their publications and talk with them face to face. (Don't worry, they won't hex you. )

I will keep it short and simple. I believe that I am obliged to obey the worldly authorities provided no godly laws are thereby transgressed.

Neo,

Not worried about being hexed, vexed, or otherwise. I have just heard so much negative about the J.W.'s and since I don't know much about it, I am curious.

Can you tell me what the core belief is concerning going to Heaven? I would really appreciate it.

This isn't exactly what Setanta was hoping for in his thread. (I think) So, I'll be brief: The vast majority of mankind have the hope of living the life Adam and Eve lost - everlasting life on earth. Those few who serve with Jesus in heaven will be kings and priests over the earth. I am hoping to live on earth.

I copied this for reference:

Pay taxes.
Obey the law.
Where the government's laws conflict with God's laws, obey God's laws.

Sort of rules out civil disobedience (or worse) as a Christian option.
---------
Yes on pay taxes honestly--yes on obeying the law (although I have broken it on occasion--I paid my penance [speeding]).

However, I disagree strongly on the 'no Civil Disobedience'. Christians throughout history have been pretty high on the Civil Disobedience rolls.

If I feel something is wrong, and in conflict with what I believe to be a higher law than man's law, I would protest to the point of being arrested.

Don't you find it interesting, Setanta, that Jesus had to borrow a coin to present a parable?

No comment, Miss Lettybettyhettygetty, i promised i wasn't here to ambush people, and i'm not. I will not comment with my thoughts on such issues.

Lash,

I like what you said about if you feel something is wrong, and in conflict with what I believe to be a higer law than man's law, I would protest to the point of being arrested. I would be right there with you, as I am sure so would many others.

We need more of you in this world. People that will stand up for what is right - you go girl!

And, as I understand it, I believe that it is not actually the act of civil disobedience spoken of, but the way the act was carried out, such as riots, etc. I keep in mind that even Christ became angry and He tossed the moneychangers out of the temple. I don't believe it is a sin to be angry, but I do believe it is a sin to use that anger to cause harm in any way.

No, problem, Setanta. I was just thinking that Jesus, the man, may well have been a prophet and an indigent one at that.

If you could find where I denied the right of others to protest or engage in Civil Disobedience, your smugness would have some merit...

Lash,

Did you mean that comment to me? If you did, hey, I'm sorry. I surely didn't intend for that to come out as being smug. If it was meant to me, can you tell me what you thought was smug so I can reassess it? Again, my apologies if it was me.

LOL!!! I hadn't realized you were on the thread.

No. Wasn't you.

Well Lash, if you're going to spread bile in this thread, which i started for a purose which has answered well up to this point, have the courtesy to make it known to whom you address yourself when you begin your vituperation. You've already upset one member to no purpose, and i'd rather you leave and not come back then that you create an unnecessary invidious atmosphere.

Setanta--

You have already used invidious too many times this week.

If you are concerned about Momma Angel's feelings, you may want to survey the extreme inhospitable manner in which Frank is attacking her due to her religious beliefs on another thread.

In the likely event you are not concerned, I will kindly and distinctly uninvidiously ask--

No comment, Miss Lettybettyhettygetty, i promised i wasn't here to ambush people, and i'm not. I will not comment with my thoughts on such issues.

Did that have meaning in reference to my post:

I copied this for reference:

Pay taxes.
Obey the law.
Where the government's laws conflict with God's laws, obey God's laws.

Sort of rules out civil disobedience (or worse) as a Christian option.
---------
Yes on pay taxes honestly--yes on obeying the law (although I have broken it on occasion--I paid my penance [speeding]).

However, I disagree strongly on the 'no Civil Disobedience'. Christians throughout history have been pretty high on the Civil Disobedience rolls.

If I feel something is wrong, and in conflict with what I believe to be a higher law than man's law, I would protest to the point of being arrested.
---------------
If not, I am curious as to what it DID reference, as an interested participant.