Codeborg, thanks for the link.
Harry Truman, I believe, got the UN started, too bad he's not around to contribute to the international debate. Time will serve to soften the anti-French sentiment. The backlash is short-sighted, void of any political philosophy other than a knee jerk, kicking and screaming reaction to a country which dares to defy the mighty U.S. Just like being in High School all over again.
Of course its ridiculous to characterize an entire nation as "This" or "That". French-Bashing is pretty ridiculous too ... an emotionally gratifying "Cheapshot", really. It appears, however, that Chirac et al are committed to offering straightlines which are hard for some to resist in the current circumstance. Then again, it should be noted several of those bons mots considerably predate the present crisis.
On a more serious note, I believe France has seen the end of her days as a World Power Player. France's impotence and irrelevance has been demonstrated quite plainly to many. Her cynicism and duplicity, or at least that of some very large entities among her private sector, may very well be trotted out for all to see as a consequence of The Iraq mess she failed to "Contain".
Then again, "Containment" was more or less the idea behind the Maginot Line. Maybe there is "something about the French ... "
If the UN falls victim to this war it will indeed be the end for France as a big player (since its seat would mean nothing). I think they haven't been a player for longer than that but now even less so.
I think France played geoploitics very badly this year. Not in the positions it took but rather the way they sought to make their case. The Germans did very well in comparison.
I consider it a pity, I like to see more big players. It's kind of like a sports game, it's better without a mismatch.
Aren't we making something of an assumption here that France (the people or the politicians) actually wishes to be considered a big player?
France will not be taken serously by anybody in the future. They provide nothing to a solution; they are only a blockade to any form of progress. c.i.
blatham wrote:Aren't we making something of an assumption here that France (the people or the politicians) actually wishes to be considered a big player?
I believe such an assumption to be warranted. As for taking France seriously, well, that remains to be seen. I'm fairly confident the French will continue to take themselves seriously ... rather more seriously than many others on the Geopolitical Stage will take them.
Part of what is going on here is that the US administration needs a scapegoat to point to as the cause for the UN shmozzle. It certainly will not let that finger come their way, this administration is particularly (and acutely) sensitive to any suggestion they might be wrong. And I think them far more in the wrong than are the French.
I really don't agree with you ci. For example, here in Canada, there is no particular animosity whatsoever that I have run into against France's decisions (other than in our right wing press). The animosity I do bump into very commonly is directed against the US for its unyielding urge to act unilaterally. Damage done to international relations is laid at the feet of the Bush administration, and not the French. And this is ninety per cent (not exaggerated) of those I speak with...all ages and income levels included.
The EU is itself a new entity and is evolving. But it is looking as if it will be a very successful experiment. The other countries involved are more in step with Canada's feelings about this than the administrations PR line suggests, I think.
For most of the world, it is not France which looks the odd man out. It is the US as presently behaving.
timber
I really don't know what warrants your assumption. From my viewpoint here, and from the reading I have done, I do not get a sense of France having a big hardon for world power. Surely, like all states, they have a self-image, and that self-image is defined by cultural stories and myths, but I do not see it as a chest-puffy portrait. They enjoy a prestigious place in the EU and NATO, but that seems historically and realistically justified.
I don't agree that France holds any "Position of Honor" within NATO; rather they are perceived more the slightly odd, and neither predictable nor reliable cousin puffed with memories of her faded glory. Such may indeed be not the case. It nonetheless the impression I get from conversation with fairly high-ranking officers of NATO countries. Of course, the Military point of view is rarely perfectly conguent with the Civilian point of view, and here of late I've been discoursing with perhaps more military than civilian types ... of whatever (and many) flags. I think too France has diminshed her standing in the EU, many nations, not just the newer ones, therein seeing France as essentially impotent in regard to world affairs.
I didn't mean to imply France desired "Power" in the traditional sense; for even the most ardent of the French, that is an unachieveable goal in today's world,. No, what I believe France tried to grasp, and failed to gain, was influence. France, Germany, and Russia are not Europe, nor has Europe much likelyhood of following French leadership.
Then again, maybe I'm just pissed off, and maybe both France and I will get over this. I suspect I will be no longer angry long before France becomes no longer a footnote.
France is older and wiser, with less to prove.
Chest-puffing seems to be for the insecure. Who else so desperately needs to boost themselves?
Physical assault seems to be for the fearfully incompetent. Who else would desperately resort to such a thing?
Loudness seems to be for the invisible. Who else would try so hard to impose their voice?
Power-grabbing seems to be for those who actually feel weak and helpless. Who else would want to dominate and control every detail around them?
Does France seem calm, cool, collected, quietly strong in their opinion at home?
Does America?
I suggest we try to build our own skills and resources,
rather than indulging the urge to attack others.
We might find ourselves more capable and mature than we realize,
and let the world live their lives too.
The interesting thing, codeborg, is that you have perfectly described the French and how they interacted with those countries seeking to gain admittance to the EU.
Making up
So with a very loud child, would you:
1) slap him
2) change his diapers
3) demonstrate how he should deal with it, as a grownup
4) point and say, "ooh look at the pretty Russians!"
5) limit his intake of sugar/oil/technology/what-have-you.
6) yell "Code Adam" because somebody left their child in YOUR shopping cart.
7) get duct tape and plastic sheeting to cover the noise
I have many ideas, but sadly not as much grounding in facts as others.
And mind you, I'm not claiming America is the adult here,
but we are the voters and
we should take care of our spoiled misbehaving governments.
You come here right now Mister ... You've been a baaad President!
craven
Compairing the UN to a crippled child is the perfect analogy.
U.N. is a kindergarten (needs a nap)
I confess it was not my idea, but from a hilarious article:
Act your age, not your security council coalition size
... Not to be missed!
AU, that analogy included the U.S. being the butcher who crippled the child.
au
For goodness sakes, dag has it here. The US administration (particularly this one) doesn't want a strong and effective UN. It does want the licence to act unilaterally, and it does want to reign supreme in military/economic might. This has been explicitly stated. A 'crippled' UN is the wish.
Blatham/dagmaraka
The product was crippled long before Bush came upon the scene. Bush's actions of course did not help. But he cannot be blamed for crippling it. The UN has had a broken wing for many years.
For years, the US hasn't paid its way. The effort to reduce the role of the UN began in the Reagan years (and we thought they were bad, remember!!?!!)
seems as thought many anti affirmative action folks were bemoaning the fact that they should not be held responsible for actions of prior generations, could it be these same folks are now holding the current french citizens responsible for demonstrating gratitude to the US for WW I and WW II ?
