Is it superficial for a woman to not want to date a guy if he doesn’t pay for the first date?

@Linkat,

The term "conquest" is inherently sexist.

This is a very one-sided view of sexuality where the man is taking something from the woman. In fact every time a man has sex with a woman there is a woman who is having sex with a man.

Does anyone consider a man with whom they have had sex to be a "conquest"?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

The myth is that women don't like sex and that a woman shouldn't want to have sex. This seems to be built into Western society. Strangely, modern feminism has reinforced this notion. The idea that women desire sex is still treated with suspicion.

In order for sex to take place, someone needs to express desire first. The measage is that men should leave women alone...this means that no one os having sex.

If an attractive woman wants to count me as her sexual conquest, I am in. I don't see the issue here. I am an adult, I can handle someone expressing desire. Doing so is healthy.

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@maxdancona,

I disagree.

Modern feminism has taught women they can be selective on who, why, when and where they have sex. Your timetable of "just a few dates & put out" is a put off.

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@neptuneblue,

Women have always been taught that they can be selective... and that a "good girl" will be selective.

The "good girl" myth revolves around a woman who says "No" to sex, who keeps herself pure until she is married. Our culture has told women to select the correct man, and only one man. The rituals involving the man who will buy a big enough diamond ring and have a job... and that she will save herself for that one man.

This is a traditional female gender role that you are perpetuating.

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@maxdancona,

What are you even talking about??

I don't HAVE to sleep with you because you bought a few meals. It's not a matter of a "correct" man at all.

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I don't think that "conqueror/vanquished" is a very healthy way to look at sexual relationships.

What is wrong with looking at sex as something that is desired by men and women alike that benefits each of them? Most heterosexual men have had sex with a number of women. Most heterosexual women have had sex with a number of men.

Sex is enjoyable to most of us. Who is the conquest of whom? Feminism has done us a disfavor. Instead of portraying sexual desire as natural and sex as an enjoyable activity between two equals, they continue to portray sex as an agressive act that is perpetrated by a man on a woman.

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@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

What are you even talking about??

I don't HAVE to sleep with you because you bought a few meals. It's not a matter of a "correct" man at all.

If I am buying you expensive meals in a dating context, it should be understood that I am seeking (or at least exploring) a sexual relationship with you. If you are not naive, this is a common understanding based on our shared culture.

If you are taking advantage the expensive meals without any interest in a sexual relationship, you are being a jerk. It isn't nice to take advantage of a person who is pursuing a relationship with you. If I am pursuing you, and you are just using me for free food, that's not a position in which I want to be.

The solution of course, is honesty. After a few dates, I am going to ask you directly if you want a sexual relationship (actually, this conversation is generally about where the relationship is going....) At this point you can either tell me honestly you aren't interested, or you can say "let's go to bed now you sexy beast" or you might tell me "I like you but I am not ready yet". At this point we can have an honest conversation about what we each want.

If you aren't interested, I am leaving. Why should I pursue a relationship with someone who isn't interested?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Why do I have to be on YOUR timetable? I have my own wants, needs and desires. You're acting impulsively and rudely, in which case it makes you even that much more undesirable.

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@neptuneblue,

If I am in any kind of relationship, the wants needs of both people are equally important. It is a matter of communication and respect,

It is not uncommon that after a few dates, one person will find they want to have a sexual relationship and the other person doesn't. If you are in this situation, you may be willing to wait for a while as long as there is hope for a sexual relationship in the future. At some point you are going to get frustrated and decide to move on. Not every relationship works out, when people don't want the same thing... it is time to respectfully move on.

I believe in honesty and communication. After some number of dates, I am going to say "I am interested in a more serious relationship, I would like to go to bed with you". There is nothing impulsive or rude about this in my opinion. That is what honesty looks like. People like sex, and respectful adults should be able to talk openly about sex.

The alternative is playing a little game where each person has an hidden agenda and no one is being honest about what they want.

I don't like playing these games.

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@neptuneblue,

I am curious Neptune. Have you ever initiated a sexual relationship (with someone you have never been intimate with before)? Someone has to initate in order for sex to happen. Do you ever take this role?

There have been women who were receptive when I initiated a sexual relationship with them. I have never had a woman who took the initiative before I did.

This is an gender role imbalance that feminists don't seem to talk about.

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@maxdancona,

Of course I have - it's silly for you to think women don't.

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@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

Of course I have - it's silly for you to think women don't.

Good. So you understand my point then. I assume you weren't disrespectful to this person when you asked them for sex. I also assume that at some point, if they didn't respond positively, you would move on and look for someone else.

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I am advocating for sex-positivity.

- It is OK to desire sex (sexual desire is a normal part of being human).

- It is OK for anyone to ask another person for sex. Of course I mean normal rules of decency with consenting adults. I support laws preventing workplace harassment for example.

- It is OK for anyone who is asked for sex to say "No".

- It is also OK for anyone to say "Yes".

In my opinion, our modern society is discouraging any expression of sexual desire. We are making it much more difficult to ask for sex. There is now a real social cost and people are shamed for wanting sex.

The result is that fewer people than ever are having sex. The sexual desire is still there, but it is being frustrated. Sex positivity says... yes, it is natural and good to desire sex. Take responsibility and ask for what you want.

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@maxdancona,

I couldn't agree more, although I believe the currently approved of response to what you said it, "How dare you objectify women, you sexist!"

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

In my opinion, our modern society is discouraging any expression of sexual desire. We are making it much more difficult to ask for sex. There is now a real social cost and people are shamed for wanting sex.

The result is that fewer people than ever are having sex. The sexual desire is still there, but it is being frustrated.

What exactly are you basing all this hogwash on? How is society discouraging any expression of sexual desire? I haven't seen any evidence of this. How are we making it more difficult to ask for sex? I haven't seen any evidence of this. What is the "social cost" and who are the people and how are those "people shamed for wanting sex"? I don't even know what you mean by 'social cost', and I haven't seen any shaming.

How do you know that "fewer people than ever are having sex"? Are you conducting polls? I haven't seen any evidence of this.

Max, you can't just make these statements as if they're facts. This is why you're not credible. You just write whatever you want as if you're an authority on everything, especially relationships, and... surprise ... you're not. Back up your statements if you want credibility. Cite some sources, at least.

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@Mame,

I am clearly not stating this as a fact. It is an opinion. You can tell that because I start by saying "In my opinion".

However, I do believe I my opinion is valid (and it is based on my experience as a heterosexual man).

That being said, the polls do seem to back up my personal opinion. There are quite a few polls saying that most men are uncomfortable being alone with women at work, and that dating has become more difficult since the #MeToo movement

See https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/nearly-half-of-u-s-adults-say-dating-has-gotten-harder-for-most-people-in-the-last-10-years/ for example.

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@Mame,

Mame wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

In my opinion, our modern society is discouraging any expression of sexual desire. We are making it much more difficult to ask for sex. There is now a real social cost and people are shamed for wanting sex.

The result is that fewer people than ever are having sex. The sexual desire is still there, but it is being frustrated.

What exactly are you basing all this hogwash on? How is society discouraging any expression of sexual desire? I haven't seen any evidence of this. How are we making it more difficult to ask for sex? I haven't seen any evidence of this. What is the "social cost" and who are the people and how are those "people shamed for wanting sex"? I don't even know what you mean by 'social cost', and I haven't seen any shaming.

How do you know that "fewer people than ever are having sex"? Are you conducting polls? I haven't seen any evidence of this.

Max, you can't just make these statements as if they're facts. This is why you're not credible. You just write whatever you want as if you're an authority on everything, especially relationships, and... surprise ... you're not. Back up your statements if you want credibility. Cite some sources, at least.

You haven't answered these questions. Surprise. Not.

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@maxdancona,

Oh.

So you are equating work place sexual harassment to dating statistics.

Not even in the same realm.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

You are really looking for a fight tonight, Neptune. Is everything OK?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The myth is that women don't like sex and that a woman shouldn't want to have sex. This seems to be built into Western society. Strangely, modern feminism has reinforced this notion. The idea that women desire sex is still treated with suspicion.

I need to do some 'womansplaining' to you, apparently. lol This concept is so very, very OUT OF DATE - how old are you, anyway?! Or what culture do you exist in?

Women have been freely and lovingly having sex with whomever they want, initiating it and responding, for decades. And we are not ashamed of that.

Yes, I can see that in certain repressive cultures, but definitely not mainstream western cultures.

1 Reply

Is it superficial for a woman to not want to date a guy if he doesn’t pay for the first date?

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